9: Campbell Harrison, Australian Lead Climber

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to climb as well as I did in the finals and make a podium as well felt like the culmination

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of almost a decade of really, really hard work.

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Having an eating disorder felt mandatory in the sport.

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In tears the whole time, went out to climb, didn't do well in the speed round, and ultimately

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made the decision that I would

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Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Coming podcast.

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I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Campbell Harrison.

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Campbell represents Team Australia and is one of the Oceania region's top competitors

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for moving on to the Olympics in the boulder and lead combined category.

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He also recently got elected to the IFSC Athletes Commission, so in this episode we'll talk

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about causes he'd like to champion through that, what it's like competing as an Australian,

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and he also opens up about his past struggles with eating disorders as well as why he was

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partially missing in Olympic qualifiers in 2020.

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Hope you enjoy this episode with Campbell.

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Yeah, you just came off of a really busy season, so how's it going?

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Yeah, good.

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It's still going.

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At this point we've got the biggest event of the year coming up in three weeks or so,

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the Continental Olympic Qualifier for the Oceania region.

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Officially qualified for that event, I'm on the start list and now the final preparations

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begin for what should be an interesting and exciting and terrifying experience.

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Congrats, yeah.

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Can you remind us of the dates again?

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I think it is the 24th and 25th of November.

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Yeah, we've got the finals are on the 25th on the Saturday, so that'll be when the Olympic

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ticket gets crowned for the Australia, New Zealand region.

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Looking forward to that.

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How are you feeling for it?

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Yeah, really good.

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The selection events, we had two separate selection events, a lead one and a boulder

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one, and I got first in the lead and second in the boulder.

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So I'm going into the event as the first place seeded athlete.

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And yeah, shape feels really good.

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Feeling quite consistent, which is really nice.

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And that's kind of all you can really hope for.

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I think that's going to be the main game of this one is maintaining that consistency

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across the two disciplines to hopefully, for me, I think it's going to be more a matter

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of keeping up in bouldering and then hopefully I can score some extra points in lead that

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will make the difference and fingers crossed, take the ticket.

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Yeah.

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Well, we're all rooting for you.

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That'll be really exciting.

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Yeah.

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And I definitely want to get into that a little bit more in a bit.

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But yeah, I think it'd be great if we just got to know you a little bit first in general.

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Well, actually, so first of all, I think this is just like top of mind for me right now

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because I just had my interview with Mac Room lately and people were also curious about

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the commentary that you've done co-commentating.

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Which World Cups did you co-commentate on?

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This year, I just did Clionson for the finals.

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But I've done lots and lots over the years actually, I think.

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In 2017, I did a bunch.

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2016, I think I did some as well.

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So kind of like over the years, I've done lots of different events and it's always

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been so much fun for me.

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And I think it's something outside of climbing, sports broadcasting is really interesting

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to me and I really enjoy getting behind the mic and experiencing it from that side of

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things.

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So it's something that you're maybe interested in pursuing in the future?

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Oh yeah, for sure.

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If I retired tomorrow and the IFSC livestream commentator gig was up for grabs, I would have

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my name in the ring for sure.

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I think it's so much fun and kind of a dream post-athletic career for me or one of us,

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you.

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But yeah, I really enjoy it every time I get the opportunity to do it.

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What's your experience like in the commentary box as I guess an athlete?

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Do you find it stressful or is it a smooth experience for you?

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It's not super stressful for me.

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I think especially when I'm not anchoring the cast, I've done a few for national competitions

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where I'm in charge and that can be a little bit stressful sometimes.

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I think by doing the commentary, I've definitely developed some empathy for commentators for

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the details they miss and the mistakes they make.

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You would never think it but you've just got so much going on in your head, you're always

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thinking of what to say next.

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It's so easy to forget that this isn't the hype way of the route, someone else actually

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did an extra move or especially in bouldering when there's so much going on, you might have

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a commentator say, oh, it's our first top of this boulder when someone else has already

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topped it but that's because not only are they tracking between four to eight different

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climbs at the same time but they've also got someone yabbering away in your ear telling

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you when the ad breaks are going to be.

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People have maybe one, two, even three different screens or sheets of paper with information

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in front of you, just so much coming in all at once.

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It is really easy to make mistakes but it also keeps it really exciting.

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As a co-commentator for IFSC, you don't have to deal with any of the extra noise and voices

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in your ears?

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Not as much.

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You still have some of the voices and the details and things but I think at the end

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of the day, if you mess up, it's not really on you, I guess.

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It's a little bit less stressful but you also have an opportunity to impart some new knowledge.

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Even a commentator like Matt won't necessarily have that first-hand information of what it's

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like to be behind the wall and what it's like to go through the process of a World Cup as

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an athlete.

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It's fun to share that side of it as well in a way that viewers at home don't always

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get to experience it like that.

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That's quite nice as well.

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Did you find that you had any go-to phrases like Matt does when you're doing the full

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commentary?

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Oh gosh, I probably do.

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I'm sure if I went back and listened, there's probably things that I would repeat.

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Not that I can think of off the top of my head but I do remember from doing a Youth

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Nationals event where I was commentating for three days in a row and you do just start

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to feel like a bit of a robot just saying the same things again and again and again.

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So I'm sure there's stuff in there that other people would pick up on that I'm not noticing

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but in the moment, you're just trying to think of interesting things to say that you've already

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said for the last however many hours.

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Yeah, couldn't bear to watch it back.

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Oh yeah.

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No one likes to hear their voice on tape.

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So yeah, I get that.

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It's the worst.

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So yeah, you were commentating already a bit in 2016, 2017.

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So you've kind of been on the scene for quite a while.

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How old were you when you first started climbing and first started competing?

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Yeah, so I first started climbing, I think I was around eight years old and at that point

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it was just for fun.

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I think as a kid and even as an adult, I've been super into video games, especially as

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a kid I was obsessed with the Tomb Raider series and I think in my mind I connected

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Tomb Raider with rock climbing.

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So I thought it would be a fun little sport for me to do because I was a pretty athletic

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kid and that I could run and I was strong but didn't really connect with ball sports.

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I wasn't super coordinated at them so I thought I'd get climbing a go for whatever reason

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and just fell instantly in love with it and just over time started climbing more and more

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and more.

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I thought I was really good at it, started doing competitions, realized I was actually

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not that good at it.

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And that really lit a fire underneath me that I'd never really experienced before.

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I think I started training really hard and saw the gains, saw the benefits, saw how fast

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I was improving and just got totally addicted to that experience and then that developed

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into a real ambition to pursue excellence within climbing I guess.

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So I started doing my first international competitions in 2012 when I was like 14, 15.

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Then progressed onto the senior circuit through 2015, 2016 and have competed on the World

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Cup circuit pretty much every year since then.

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I think the improvement I've made from coming at the very bottom of the pack at my

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first World Cups to now being able to make semi-finals all the once in a season, I've

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really enjoyed that experience.

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And I think for me that's a huge draw card of climbing is just I really enjoy that competitive

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side and I really enjoy just pushing my limits and always chasing the next thing.

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Yeah.

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So you went from youth to the adult circuit.

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How do you determine when you're ready to go into the adult portion?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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I don't even know if you could say that I was ready when I did.

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I think especially when you're competing in somewhere like Australia, there kind of isn't,

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if you want to compete internationally, you've got the one competition a year at World Youth

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Championships and then there's not really anything else.

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We don't have a youth series, like a continental youth series.

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The competitions within the domestic calendar can be a little bit sporadic sometimes.

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So if you want to keep pushing the limits, then the senior World Cup circuit is kind

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of the thing that you've got, or at least it was when I was making that transition.

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I think I just knew that competing on the World Cup circuit was my dream and my goal

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within the sport.

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So I just decided that that was what I was going to do, I guess.

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I think initially it was super terrifying and super overwhelming.

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I definitely wasn't competitive by any stretch, but if you want to accomplish something like

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the first step to making that goal is trying.

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You're never going to win a World Cup if you never enter a World Cup.

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So I guess I just decided I had to take that leap and make it happen and see where it goes.

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So was it as simple as just deciding that you're going to sign up for the other one?

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No, I guess not.

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There is a qualification process, of course.

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You have to be able to be competitive nationally.

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For instance, I think I won my first senior nationals in 2015.

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So by being consistently competitive on the national circuit, I was qualified for the

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international circuit.

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So obviously you have to qualify, you have to have those results domestically.

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You also have to save a lot of money.

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All through high school I had a part-time job and I was just saving, saving, saving,

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and not really spending any of it.

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So there's also the financial side of things as well that's a big barrier.

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Once you have accomplished those things, it's just a matter of putting in the work, being

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brave and taking the leap, I guess.

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So just for the travel costs and the fact that it goes all around the world, I guess?

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Yeah, for sure.

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My first big World Cup trip was over three months of being in Europe overseas with some

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of my other teammates traveling all around.

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So yeah, the cost adds up pretty quickly and I didn't have any kind of financial sponsorship

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or support at that time as well.

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The Australian team is totally self-funded.

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So yeah, the financial side of things is definitely a big barrier that you have to be ready to

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tackle and there are a lot of sacrifices I think that come into making that happen.

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I talk about jumping onto this World Cup circuit like it's simple, but maybe that's just because

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it's such a priority for me that it's like, in my mind I was like, well, that's the thing

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I'm going to do so I'm going to do everything I can to make that happen.

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But ultimately, yeah, it's quite a heavy involved decision just putting aside the resources

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to even think about heading over there.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It's like a huge sacrifice in terms of everything, like money, your time, what you dedicate your

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energy towards.

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It's a lot.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And I think that was something that maybe set me apart from some of my other competitors

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when I was young was that I was very open and forward about climbing being my priority

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even with school teachers and things that would be like, why haven't you finished your

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homework?

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And it's like, well, be honest with you, my priority wasn't finishing my homework, my

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priority was finishing my training.

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And that's maybe not everyone's way of looking at things, but it's definitely how I decided

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to tackle it.

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I think that's part of why I've been able to make climbing my job is that even before

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it was actually a job, you have to treat it as such and take yourself and it very seriously.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And I guess from being on the youth circuit and the adult circuit, how do you feel like

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you've grown throughout those years?

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Oh God, so much, so much.

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I'm definitely a completely different person to what I was when I was starting out.

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Yeah, I think, I don't know, being on the World Cup circuit, especially heading over

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there a lot of the time alone as the only Australian, I got these really unique opportunities

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to mix with a whole bunch of climbers from a whole bunch of different countries and really

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just like learn so much and it totally changed my work ethic as an athlete and my capacity

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to be independent and not to mention my climbing itself, my climbing ability and my approach

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to my training where I was able to grow a lot from those experiences, I think.

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How did you feel emotionally going through those times?

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Because it's really hard as a kid, I'm sure.

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I have seen just youth competitions and you can feel the air there.

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There's so much stress in the air and then afterwards everyone's crying and it's just

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like, it doesn't really feel great being there.

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Do you feel like there's a big emotional difference between how you perceived it as a youth versus

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an adult?

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Oh yeah.

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You talk about crying at competitions and I, as a kid definitely did my, or as a teenager,

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definitely did my fair share of crying at competitions.

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I think when I was starting out, when I was younger, it had more of a feel and end all

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feeling to it, competition climbing.

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If one competition went bad, I remember this one competition, it was right before I headed

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over to my first World Cup circuit and I came second in a senior comp.

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I remember just standing in the shower sobbing, just sobbing.

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I was like, oh my God, I'm not ready.

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I look back and I'm like, you know.

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I don't think, there were so many factors that played into me coming second in that

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event but as a young person, I just wasn't really able to look at the whole picture like

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that.

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If you're not first, you're last, it's kind of a alias sort of mentality.

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Yeah.

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It definitely had its lows and its highs.

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There were some times where doing it all and committing to it all has been really, really

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hard and then there are other times where it pays off and it feels like it's, you kind

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of trick yourself into feeling like it's been easy the whole time.

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Sounds kind of dramatic with the shower.

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Just standing in there crying, thinking that it's the end of the world.

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Yeah.

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I mean, yeah, when you're in your teens, it can feel like that sometimes.

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It can all feel like the, yeah, it can feel like the end of the world.

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You get older and you grow up and you start to be able to conceptualize things a little

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bit more.

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I think you see all the competitions that you've done in the past and then all the competitions

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you have yet to do in the future and it's a lot easier to look at it as just one piece

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of a greater puzzle.

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Whereas when it's your first just stepping onto the scene, it can feel like this is the

00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,320
moment, this is the only moment, this is everything that your life has come to.

00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:05,160
Then I'm 26 now, I'm not old by any means, but old enough to kind of realize, oh, I've

00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:13,640
been competing for 11 years now and probably competing for a good few more years to go.

00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,280
So it's kind of all just part of the journey.

00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:18,760
Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:24,920
So previously you also mentioned that oftentimes you would be the only Australian at the World

00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,240
Cups.

00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:33,440
And so kind of just wanted to dive into climbing in Australia since it's still, I guess, sort

00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,800
of a developing sport there.

00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:43,000
Well I guess first of all, you just came off of the national bouldering or the bouldering

00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,480
nationals.

00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,960
And I saw you took a really big fall.

00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:48,960
That shocked me.

00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,600
That's like the biggest fall that I think I've seen in a competition recently.

00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,040
I'll link it in the show notes for everyone to see.

00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,560
But yeah, in general, how did it go?

00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,560
Yeah.

00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:07,200
I can mention that fall, that was definitely the biggest fall I've ever taken in climbing,

00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,760
like comp or otherwise.

00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,480
And it was pretty scary.

00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,320
Coming into this competition, had some pretty big goals.

00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:20,000
I think bouldering nationals had kind of always gone badly for me.

00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,440
I feel like I've had really great performances on sort of all levels of the domestic circuit.

00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,160
I'd like won team selection events and things like that.

00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,760
But then when bouldering nationals came around, I'd never been able to even make finals.

00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,120
I think my best result was like eighth.

00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:38,720
So I definitely felt like a little bit of pressure going into this event that I was

00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:45,560
putting on myself to be able to sort of break that curse, I guess.

00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:52,040
But yeah, I think this event was like one of those bouldering events where I feel like

00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,440
my kind of headspace was at its best.

00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,920
My physical shape was probably the best it's been for bouldering and yeah, was just like

00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,000
able to be really consistent throughout the rounds.

00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,480
And so when I finished my semi-final and knew that I was progressing to the next round,

00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,560
that was a really emotional experience.

00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,680
And then yeah, to climb as well as I did in the finals and make a podium as well felt

00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:27,000
like the culmination of almost a decade of really, really hard work on probably my less

00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,880
proficient discipline of the two.

00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,000
So yeah, it was a really emotional experience.

00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:39,680
I think I surprised myself in a lot of ways regarding the massive fall I took on the second

00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,200
finals boulder.

00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,320
Like I was super rattled and super scared and then still managed to like pull back on

00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,200
and top of the boulder and I was the only person in the round who managed to finish

00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:53,200
that block.

00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:59,360
And so yeah, it was a yeah, that comp was a big moment for me and like something I think

00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,320
I'll be proud of for a really long time.

00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:07,200
Yeah, is bouldering something that you actually enjoy competing in or are you kind of just

00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,480
doing it because of the whole combined format?

00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Oh no, I really love bouldering and I really love competing in bouldering.

00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:23,320
I think bouldering has definitely changed a lot in the time that I've been competing

00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:29,300
and I think maybe sometimes it doesn't feel like quite like the sport that I initially

00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:34,580
signed up for and I think that's why I gravitate towards, well part of why I gravitate towards

00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:39,480
LEAD a little bit more, it's a little bit more classic in terms of the elements of climbing

00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,680
that I really resonate with and that got me into the sport.

00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,160
But no, I do really enjoy bouldering.

00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:52,080
I just think on an international level I would like to be a little bit more competitive than

00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,180
I am I think, whereas in LEAD I feel like I'm continually progressing.

00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:01,920
So I totally err towards that discipline a little bit more than boulder per se.

00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,960
But I think this event also showed me that that's changing, like I am becoming more

00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,200
proficient in the modern style and the work is paying off.

00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:16,160
So I don't know, in this past 12 months I think my attitude towards bouldering has changed

00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:23,200
a little bit and I think there's more room to grow in that discipline than I maybe thought

00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,200
there was.

00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:31,240
I guess I'm kind of surprised that you think LEAD is still a little bit more old school

00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,760
because they've definitely been setting some scary stuff for LEAD as well.

00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:43,120
Like I've seen some sketchy starts where you just have to like start on a pretty big jump

00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:51,240
or they've set some like lache moves in the middle that could be kind of stopper moves.

00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:59,720
Do you feel like it's going towards this like new school style in LEAD as well or is it

00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,640
just like it's alright?

00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:09,400
Yeah, they're definitely implementing more sort of new school movements into LEAD.

00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,080
But at the end of the day, like the fact that you only have one go in LEAD and you know

00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,120
the split is as a result of you know exactly where you fall off on the route.

00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:25,240
I think like these sorts of low percentage moves that take a little bit of time to learn

00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,440
before you can do them just don't lend well to the scoring system within LEAD.

00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,760
So I think there's only ever going to be like so much room for new school parkoury comp

00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,640
style moves in LEAD and like yeah typically LEAD still comes down to like a matter of

00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,480
who's the fittest and who's the strongest and who can kind of hold on for the longest.

00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,360
And yeah that's like part of LEAD climbing that I really, really enjoy.

00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,680
But you know it's nice to have a few little crazy comp moves in there as well.

00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:03,120
But yeah I think we're also seeing a lot of like athletes who are previously boulder specialists,

00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:08,360
especially like the more power centered boulder specialists starting to perform a lot more

00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:12,680
consistently in LEAD than they perhaps were in in bouldering to begin with.

00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,480
So oh then they are in bouldering now sorry.

00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:21,800
Yeah so I think it sort of remains a little bit more old school out of the two.

00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,640
Okay yeah.

00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,560
So yeah now back to the Australia stuff.

00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:36,000
How do you feel about it being a developing sport in Australia and also in general just

00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,160
like Australia being kind of far from everything and like the long travel.

00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,480
I feel like I've heard that's a pretty big issue.

00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,520
How do you deal with those sorts of things?

00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:55,480
Yeah as far as like the development of climbing within Australia I think you'd maybe be hard

00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,640
pressed to find a country where climbing is growing faster than in Australia.

00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,600
I think like the number of gyms that have appeared in just the last five years is mind

00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:10,440
blowing and so it's growing really fast which presents its own set of problems in terms

00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:17,440
of like the development of climbing as like a high performance sport if the certain aspects

00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,680
of the sport are growing way faster than others.

00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,600
So that's really complex in and of itself and we're not really seeing like the growth

00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,240
of climbing flow into like support of high level athletes yet.

00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:36,200
So that plays into the issue of Australia being just generally speaking really really

00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:45,000
far away from the majority of the comp climbing circuit which yeah adds a lot of barriers

00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,040
to people who are like to aspiring competition climbers you know.

00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:56,000
I always feel quite jealous of like Europeans who for them going to a World Cup is like

00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:02,720
a weekend away from home and then for us going to a World Cup is like okay well not going

00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,840
to be able to save for a deposit on a house this year because you know I have to pay the

00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,080
equivalent of a mortgage to like go and do this thing and it's my dream no one's making

00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:19,840
me do it I'm choosing to do it you know.

00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,060
Just wanting to like just silly things like oh I'd love to buy a new bike or I'd love

00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:31,440
to buy a new laptop or you know I haven't replaced my phones in six years eight years

00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,640
whatever like those are all things that just have to go on hold just as a result of climbing

00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,880
being of Australia being so far away from the rest of the climbing scene.

00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,080
So it can be tough sometimes but again like I said you know no one's making us do it so

00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,660
sometimes you have to swallow that pill and just keep on keeping on.

00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:56,240
Do you end up kind of like staying in Europe for a while I think you mentioned you stayed

00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,160
for like three months before.

00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:05,440
Yeah the way I've found works best for me is if I can pick a city usually in Innsbruck

00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:13,080
in Austria and rent an apartment like or sublet an apartment from somebody rather than paying

00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:21,040
like the extortionate Airbnb fees just paying like a standard monthly rent for a room and

00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:26,840
keeping that room for like a whole three months and then you can just then you can treat yeah

00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,520
World Cups as like a more of like a weekend or a couple weeks you go away you do the World

00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,120
Cups you come back to the home base we've got you know all of your creature comforts

00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:46,040
and your luggage and whatnot and yeah rather than rather than like moving around a lot

00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,720
and paying a lot for really expensive accommodation or you know flying to Europe coming back flying

00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,760
there again I like to keep that home base it's just like a little bit cheaper and a

00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,560
little bit like logistically easier I think for me.

00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:04,480
Do you ever like stay and train in Europe or is all your training done back in Australia?

00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:13,080
No I usually I'll usually try and prepare for the World Cups in Europe at least that

00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,600
last two to four weeks before I start my season I'll try to train in Europe but you know there's

00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,360
a it's like it's a it's a very clever careful balancing act because you know you only have

00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:31,120
a certain number of days that you can stay within the Schengen zone the like European

00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:37,880
visa zone without without having an extended visa and so you know you've got to think like

00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:45,000
okay if I'm going to do these events then I can train for three weeks before the World

00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,160
Cup season starts in Europe but you know if I skip this event I can do a little bit of

00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:55,200
extra training or if I skip the training I can do a little bit like a few more comps

00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,000
so yeah it gets quite quite strategic in that sense.

00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,680
Yeah there's a lot of planning that goes into it.

00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,200
Yeah definitely.

00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:12,920
And how's how's like your training in Australia like is it good for a lead or better for bouldering

00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,500
or do you have like coaches?

00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:19,840
I would say I'll stick with for the most part training in Melbourne because that's where

00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,680
I live.

00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:33,440
I would say for bouldering it's decent it's hard to find like a lots of hard blocks to

00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,000
to train on but we have we have like quite a few nice gyms.

00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,480
I think you have to get somewhat creative with your training it has to be quite structured

00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,200
because you know you're not going to have like all of the resources that you could want

00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,760
but you know if you've got like a decent spray wall and a fingerboard and you know a weights

00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,840
gym and that sort of thing there's there's quite a lot you can do.

00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:04,320
For lead it's gotten better in the last sort of year year and a half but still not still

00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,320
not great.

00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,520
I think unless a gym sets roots specifically for me it would I would be hard pressed to

00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:20,240
find anything much harder than like 7c 7c plus in a gym which you know world cup roots

00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:27,520
start at 8b 8b plus so you know most of my lead training will happen on a spray wall

00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,000
when I'm in Melbourne whereas when I go overseas I like really take that opportunity to you

00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,720
know you go somewhere like Innsbruck where maybe there's like 30 roots 8b and above and

00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,400
you just try to get in as much as you can while you're there.

00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,720
Yeah do you have any thoughts on how how to like grow the Australian team and how you

00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:55,640
think it could be better funded?

00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:04,880
I think I think first and foremost the Australian team needs more opportunities to train and

00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:13,360
climb together I think in the since like since COVID blew up initially I think we've had

00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:20,280
one training camp as a team which was announced a week before the camp started and I think

00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:27,520
we had maybe five or six people turn out most of which lived in the city that it was being

00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,640
held so yeah the Australian team is like very disjointed we don't get a lot of opportunities

00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,760
to come together and climb together and climb on like high level roots with high level roots

00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:48,840
setting coaching is quite limited so I think it would be yeah a lot of it's yeah it's really

00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,520
tough and then the idea of like the funding stuff that I've honestly no idea like how

00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:00,880
to how to grow the funding of Australian climbing I think I'm so focused on growing the funding

00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:09,960
of Campbell's climbing you know but yeah I think if the if there was like maybe more

00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,440
cohesion between like amongst the team and then maybe more like cooperation between the

00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040
team and the gyms we might be able to get a little bit more going but you know like

00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,080
it is it is improving it is getting better in some ways and then it's very stagnant in

00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,880
others well I guess like stagnant in what ways just like the setting we're growing in

00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,760
terms of the calibre of our athletes but stagnant in terms of things like those those training

00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:40,560
camps training events having consistent competition schedules as well like for this year we didn't

00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,680
have a lead nationals and we ended up having to have a lead selection which was just like

00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,600
a like a sort of tailored down version of a lead nationals with only a qualification

00:33:51,600 --> 00:34:02,600
round you know it happened at from like 7am to 3pm on a Friday you know so yeah it's quite

00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,240
interesting that there's so many more gyms and like so much money within the climbing

00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:14,580
industry at a commercial level but then you know we can't get venues to host a lead nationals

00:34:14,580 --> 00:34:20,040
for a couple of days or you know host a training camp for an afternoon that sort of thing so

00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:26,200
yeah it's it's progressing in so many ways and then in other ways yeah not much change

00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:32,480
is really happening if that makes sense yeah I mean I guess I'm actually not sure if it's

00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,120
if there's a lot of money at the commercial level I've heard a lot of commercial gyms

00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:47,360
actually struggle quite a bit just to like break even I've like because I wanted to like

00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:53,080
own a gym at some point or that was like a goal and I looked into it a bit and it seemed

00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:59,480
like you had to be pretty well off just to get it started yeah I think I think I just

00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,360
look at like we've got some we've got some like big franchises of gyms within Australia

00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:12,320
that like opening sort of venue after venue and I think also I do work part time at a

00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:19,680
climbing gym so I get that little insight on the amount of people that are coming through

00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,160
some of the facilities so I think yeah and I mean and also just you know like I said

00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,360
this year number the increase in the number of climbing gyms that we have is kind of telling

00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:35,480
that there's there's something here you know but yeah it hasn't it hasn't translated into

00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,920
high performance just yet which makes sense and it'll it'll come along I just think we

00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,480
haven't figured out exactly what the next step is and I'm not sure either what the next

00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:53,600
step is yeah hopefully it'll come and that sort of reminds me of the athletes commission

00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:01,620
I'm not sure if that has any bearing on how it can affect like climbing at like the Australian

00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:11,280
national level but yeah I was wondering a bit about the athletes commission and what

00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:17,160
I guess first of all what is it and why haven't we really heard about it because I feel like

00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,040
this is the first year that we heard anything about it yeah this is it's interesting it's

00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,680
one of those things that I think when you're an athlete in the circuit it's something that

00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,880
you know about and you kind of just assume that other people do but I guess it's like

00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,880
a very it's a very valid point that like up until now how would how would the general

00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,440
public have known that there was an athletes commission that you know every world championship

00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,480
we have a vote you know where there's like ballot papers and everything or this year

00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:53,880
it was online but yeah basically the basically the IFSC athletes commission is a collection

00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:02,000
of athletes that act as kind of like an advisory voice to the IFSC and our president and vice

00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:09,180
president Sean O'Coxie and Sean McColl sit on the IFSC board so basically we have meetings

00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:16,440
every month where we discuss a myriad of different issues that pertain to athlete rights whether

00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:23,800
it be considering like certain rules or the setup of venues the way athletes are maybe

00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,960
treated within those venues all sorts of things like here's a sometimes you talk about the

00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,480
sustainability of events and whether or not we as athletes can support certain events

00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,580
going ahead in the way that they are you know we cover a lot of too many different topics

00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:44,740
probably for the amount of time we spend actually meeting together but yeah we advise Sean and

00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:51,440
Shawna on how we feel about certain issues and then they present that feedback to the

00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:58,960
IFSC board so yeah for me I thought I decided to go for it this year's world championship

00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:05,560
because as far as I know we've never had an athlete from the Oceania region on the athletes

00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:11,840
commission before and so I thought it was a really unique opportunity to give the perspective

00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:17,440
not only of my region but just generally smaller climbing nations with less funding I think

00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,520
we have like very different issues to some of the other nations and so I thought it was

00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:30,880
really important that someone you know amongst that group of climbers was able to get in

00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,160
there and I think I'm a relatively outspoken member of the climbing community and because

00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,580
I've been solo for a lot of the world cups I'm quite well connected amongst the climbing

00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:49,800
community so I thought I was in like a unique position to be able to hopefully you know

00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:55,760
get that position which I end up doing and yeah being able to make a difference over

00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,640
the course of my term and also just you know learn more about how the sport works in other

00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,640
places so that then I can hopefully impart that knowledge upon my own region and maybe

00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,840
you know answer some of these questions that we've been talking about so far that we don't

00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,360
really quite have the answers to yet.

00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Yeah what kind of I guess causes are you hoping to champion as part of the Athletes Commission?

00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:27,080
I think I would love to see the World Cup circuit be a bit more like geographically

00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,720
inclusive you know being laid out in a way that it makes a little bit more sense for

00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:38,960
athletes who don't live in Europe to you know be able to come to spaten events in succession.

00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,920
I have like a notepad somewhere where I've written out a bunch of this stuff.

00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,480
Please excuse this brief intermission but I would just like to take some time and remind

00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,320
you that if you are enjoying this podcast please follow and rate it on your preferred

00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,940
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00:39:55,940 --> 00:40:00,500
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00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,400
Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests

00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,400
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00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:07,400
Back to the show.

00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,080
I had like a little brainstorm that I did when I signed up for the Athletes Commission

00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,960
and what I wanted to get out of being there.

00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,120
I think yeah for me there were the sort of geographical inclusivity that we've been talking

00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,120
about.

00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:28,720
I think I'd like to see greater regulation of route setting practices within the sport

00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,240
so kind of standardizing route setting a little bit.

00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,140
I think at the moment route setters have a lot of freedom or the potential for a lot

00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:40,120
of freedom to influence results.

00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,380
Essentially what a competition looks like, what a round looks like is almost entirely

00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:49,960
up to the head route setter as to what they see climbing being like.

00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,320
I don't think any of our route setters are trying to influence the results of competitions

00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:01,280
but nevertheless the potential for that to happen is there.

00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:08,360
More regulation I guess into what climbing rounds should look like, what is the style

00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,600
of climbing, what are these different disciplines trying to test.

00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:21,300
I also would like to see more growth made in terms of athlete health, the BMI Red S

00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:25,200
discussion as well.

00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:33,120
And just improving the general treatment of athletes and the evaluation of athletes within

00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,120
the sport.

00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,520
At the end of the day there's so many different roles that make climbing competitions happen

00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,320
but at the end of the day climbing comps don't happen unless you have athletes on the wall

00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,360
putting on a show.

00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:53,560
And sometimes it doesn't feel like that's really acknowledged when you look at the prize

00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:00,480
pool that's put up for an IFSC event for instance or the fact that you know we, I guess, you

00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,400
know finish, you'll have Yanya Gumbra finishing a world championship and then having to walk

00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:12,200
out into a crowd of people swarming her and it's not really like safe or practical.

00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,960
Yeah, the more that I think about it, the more I was like, not just in climbing but

00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:26,520
all sports in general how athletes are kind of a product I guess that people kind of just

00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,480
like view and watch for a bit and then if they like age out or they get injured it's

00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,200
kind of just like you're discarded now, you're like an old product.

00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,880
Does it kind of feel like that?

00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,840
Yeah, product is a really good word for it because I think at the moment we're viewed

00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:49,080
as products or sometimes I feel like we're even viewed as consumers.

00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:56,800
We come to the event and the event is put on for us despite there being a, we're standing

00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,920
in a stadium of thousands of people.

00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,200
Sometimes it feels like the events are put on for us and we should be just like grateful

00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,120
that this is happening so that we can do the thing we want to do which in some cases is

00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,120
true.

00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:15,880
But on the other hand, we're also almost like employees of climbing.

00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,680
We're in some ways the performers that are putting on the show, these people, these thousands

00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:28,440
of people are coming to these stadiums to watch us perform.

00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,280
And so yeah, there's like a little bit of a disconnect there I guess but I think product

00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:40,240
is a really good word for it, we're viewed as like the end product that's put out there

00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:50,760
when really we're, it's on the basis of our labor that these events are able to draw in

00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,640
the crowds that they do I guess.

00:43:52,640 --> 00:44:00,600
Yeah, it's a little bit dark though but I guess these are all issues we should try to

00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,840
solve.

00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:08,000
You also mentioned about route setters and keeping everything more consistent.

00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,840
I always wondered if it would ever happen where someone would like pay off a route setter

00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,640
or like bribe them to set so that someone could specifically win.

00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,120
Oh, look, there's one of those topics it's really hard to get into without putting your

00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,120
foot in your mouth.

00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:33,520
I think there are certainly events in the past where you can look back on and you see

00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,860
some things happening that are just a little bit suspicious.

00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,960
But I think also just yeah, just the idea that like a particular route setter who might

00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:47,800
be head route setter could say internally, you know, oh, this athlete I really like or

00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:53,000
this athlete I've potentially been paid off to set for is really good at this style.

00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,480
There's nothing stopping me from setting this style on every single boulder if I as the

00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:05,840
head route setter want that to be the vibe of the competition.

00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,640
Just more regulations put in place that ensure a diversity of boulders across a round.

00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:11,640
Yeah, interesting.

00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,960
I kind of brought that up as just like a thought.

00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,400
I didn't know it had actually happened.

00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,540
I don't want to of course like name any names or point anything at this but yeah, the potential

00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:28,600
to influence the results of climbing competitions through the route setting is very real.

00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,680
And so I think that that's something we need to think about while the sport is a bit younger.

00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:38,180
We have a good opportunity to like build a base, you know, upon which we have safe and

00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:43,600
fair competitions rather than the sport getting bigger and bigger and bigger before we've

00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,200
kind of put those foundations in place and it's maybe harder to implement them further

00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,560
down the road.

00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,880
Sort of related to that, do you feel like, so I guess that's sort of in reference to

00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,120
maybe specific like competitions but in general with like the boulder and lead combined format,

00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,120
do you feel like they've been doing a pretty good job of keeping that even?

00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,400
I think so.

00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:16,440
I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I've enjoyed watching the combined format

00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,200
and how much I like look forward to competing in the combined format.

00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,880
I think at first when I saw the like point system, I thought it seemed a little bit like

00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,640
a game show or something.

00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,080
It seemed a bit silly that like, oh, you get this many points for doing this and that many

00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:31,480
points for that.

00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,700
And I worried that, you know, it was favor one discipline over the other.

00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:42,280
But like ultimately I think you really do have to be good at both because in any given

00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,400
round the boulder round might be worth more, the lead round might be worth more.

00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,720
So like you have to be prepared to perform in either of them.

00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:59,600
And yeah, so far I think it's been like really interesting to see how different rounds maybe

00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,600
sway a bit more towards one discipline or the other, but it seems to balance out in

00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,600
a sense.

00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,960
Like I haven't seen, you know, that like, yeah, you just, you have to be good at both

00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:09,960
at the end of the day.

00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,560
I think that's like really cool to watch that you've got to be able to, you've got to be

00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,720
ready to take the opportunity in either round.

00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:15,720
Yeah.

00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:16,720
I mean, definitely cool to watch.

00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:24,680
I don't know how it's like actually having to do that and experience it as an athlete.

00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:34,620
But yeah, going back to athletes commission, do you feel like the IFSC listens to the athletes

00:47:34,620 --> 00:47:39,320
either like within athletes commission or outside of athletes commission?

00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:46,720
Um, I think being a part of the athletes commission is very new for me.

00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:54,040
I think I'm really yet to see whether or not our voice is heard.

00:47:54,040 --> 00:48:01,080
Just because, yeah, we haven't really, yeah, I just haven't really had any instances yet

00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:06,360
where we've presented something like really big and really important to the IFSC.

00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,000
And they've kind of had the opportunity to respond.

00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:16,920
They could probably, the IFSC could probably seek out feedback a little bit more than they

00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,880
already do from the athletes and from the athletes commission.

00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,680
But at the same time, like I am seeing work happen to improve that, like to improve the

00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,520
communication between the athletes and the IFSC.

00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:33,120
So yeah, I think my perspective is kind of still pending on that question.

00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,480
Well, you know, ask me in a year maybe and we'll see how I feel about it.

00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,880
Okay, yeah, we'll follow up.

00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:46,800
Yeah, another one of the things that you mentioned being on your list of things to talk about

00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,880
in terms of athletes commission is the Red S issue.

00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,880
And I mean, I know that's something everyone's talking about and hopefully they will be taking

00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,560
some kind of action on it.

00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,760
I guess that's still to be determined.

00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,160
But you also mentioned that you've sort of had your own experience with it.

00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,840
Is that something that you'd want to go into?

00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:21,680
Yeah, yeah, like it's definitely something I'm happy to talk about because I think it's

00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:32,480
really easy to look at the minority of athletes who lose a ton of weight and see huge increases

00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,680
in their performance.

00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:44,480
Whereas I think the experience of quite a lot of us is that we fell into really negative

00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:50,280
habits around eating and trying desperately to lose weight and being as small as possible

00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,040
and just kind of crashed and burned in a lot of senses.

00:49:54,040 --> 00:50:00,960
I think for every athlete who loses 5, 10 kilos and becomes a Superstar World Cup winner,

00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:08,560
it's probably 10, 20, 30 athletes who lost a bunch of weight and ended up in the hospital

00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:16,440
or ended up quitting climbing and not competing or not reaching their goals and having a myriad

00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,560
of mental and physical health problems.

00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:27,160
And so I think that's kind of more my experience of, well, not so much my experience because

00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,200
obviously I'm still climbing and I'm still climbing well.

00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:37,480
But I think my experience of when I was suffering through my eating disorder was just having

00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:44,680
so much trouble maintaining my mood, maintaining my training, maintaining my weight, all these

00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,520
fluctuations and all these issues.

00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:57,440
And I think it's quite damaging, I guess, to paint Red S in the light that it has been

00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,360
painted in that it's like this shortcut to success.

00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,840
Whereas I think in a lot of instances, it's quite the opposite.

00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,720
It's quite destructive to people's climbing careers.

00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:13,160
Well, I had no idea that it was so common.

00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:19,600
When you were experiencing it, were you aware that you were doing it or was it just kind

00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:25,600
of like the side effect of the sport and it just didn't even, I guess, register to you

00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,960
that you were doing something harmful?

00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:34,080
I think in a lot of ways, having an eating disorder felt mandatory in the sport.

00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:42,760
And I know how horrible and dark that sounds, but it felt like if I was turning up to a

00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,720
competition and I didn't look thin enough, then people would assume that I didn't care

00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:54,600
enough or that I wasn't dedicated.

00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,760
I think there was a lot of discussion and a lot of rhetoric around, well, this is how

00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,800
little I eat leading up to a competition or, oh, I'm doing so well today, I haven't eaten

00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,080
since blah, blah, blah.

00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:16,240
And I think that's changing in a lot of ways now that we're actually having the discussion

00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:22,720
and it's becoming more publicly known, these sort of darker aspects of the sport.

00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:27,320
It felt like in the community that I grew up in, it kind of felt like it was something

00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:34,560
that I had to be doing and that's sort of how I fell into it and yeah, really started

00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,320
to struggle with it, I guess.

00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,320
Oh, wow.

00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,880
So it was like an actual discussion amongst athletes, like this is something that you

00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:42,880
guys would talk about?

00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,040
Yeah, I think so.

00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,160
Not when, like for me, not when it started.

00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:54,440
I think it was just, I felt like it was very much just this number on the scales that I

00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,200
wanted to push down and felt very objective in that sense.

00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:04,660
And then it kind of started to develop into more of like an emotional, an emotional waiting

00:53:04,660 --> 00:53:07,120
on the number on the scale.

00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:13,440
But yeah, I definitely know, I remember a lot of instances within the sport where people

00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:19,360
would be having these discussions of like, I don't eat between this time and this time

00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:26,520
or I only eat this many calories in a day or in the however long before the competition

00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,840
I'm trying to lose this much.

00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,840
And while these discussions are happening, what you're seeing, like what I'm seeing in

00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,720
front of me is athletes getting worse and worse and worse at their climbing and having

00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:45,400
these like massive detriments to their performance as they're like desperately chasing the lowest

00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,560
number on the scale that they can.

00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,120
And then what people are telling you is that eating disorders are terrible in climbing,

00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,480
but they get you really good.

00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,520
You're going to be really like, you know, it's really strong when I was as light as

00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,920
possible, but you know, then it was really bad for me.

00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:02,640
But then I think like, that's not actually really the case.

00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:09,580
Like I think a lot of climbers who have tried to lose a lot of weight or have these struggles

00:54:09,580 --> 00:54:17,160
with eating and with their body image and such like tend to see a lot more detriment

00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:23,280
than benefit in actual fact, but that's not really like the narrative that we see around

00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:24,280
it.

00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:30,960
How did you sort of get out of that, the eating disorder for yourself?

00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,680
Like I said, it started off as this like very objective goal to just like reduce the number

00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,680
on the scale and then it started to turn like a little bit more emotional.

00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:46,920
I had more of like an emotional connection to like whether I was perceiving myself as

00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:54,580
light enough to be, you know, a self-respecting professional climber or whatever.

00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:59,980
And then that for me turned into quite a serious like binge eating issue.

00:54:59,980 --> 00:55:02,680
So binge eating, restricting, and that's sort of the pattern you see with a lot of

00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:08,400
climbers is trying really hard to adhere to these like rules that these climbers are setting

00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,680
of, you know, not eating this much or not eating, you know, these times, whatever it

00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:13,840
might be.

00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,800
And so you, yeah, you fall into these patterns of working really hard to try and be as thin

00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,800
as possible.

00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Eventually you can't keep up with this image of perfection.

00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:29,240
You set yourself and you slip up and you binge and then you think, oh, that was a horrible

00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,880
mistake, I have to erase what I've done.

00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,640
And so you restrict harder, which then means you binge harder because, you know, your body

00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:41,760
just it doesn't let you start like in a lot of instances, it just won't let you start

00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,080
yourself like that.

00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:51,080
And so I think for me, I had to just like completely, I had to like completely break

00:55:51,080 --> 00:56:01,080
the cycle and learn to like, if I had these like these binges, these slip ups, I had to

00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:05,320
just learn to accept that they happened and that they didn't, like it wasn't a mistake

00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,520
that needed to be rectified or fixed, that it was my body telling me that it was underfueled

00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:18,960
and under-resourced and that I needed to, yeah, if I had like a slip up and I felt like

00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,240
and I had a binge, it was because I wasn't treating my body with the respect it needed.

00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:29,240
So rather than depriving it even more, what I needed to do was give it that respect and

00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:36,040
then eventually over the course of years, managed to sort of, for the most part, heal

00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:41,440
that relationship between, you know, my body and my mind and my perception of myself.

00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:47,760
And I still have more difficult days, more difficult periods, but yeah, just learning

00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:53,040
to see those signs and like act accordingly, I guess, if that makes sense.

00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,640
It's a very personal journey.

00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,280
So I think everyone goes through it differently.

00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:06,400
But it's good to hear that you've mostly worked through it and hopefully it's not still going

00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,720
on, especially with all the attention that's been brought to it.

00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:19,480
I think people are just a lot more on alert in the public and hopefully among athletes

00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:20,480
as well.

00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,040
Yeah, it's a very complicated topic and it is very full on.

00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:32,440
I've talked about it a lot on my social media, but I guess I learned to just incorporate

00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:43,360
the joy of food just into my daily routines and learning that if I felt like I was falling

00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,400
short of my goals within food, it was probably because my body was trying to tell me something

00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,640
and learning to actually listen to my body and respect those messages that my body was

00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,640
giving me rather than thinking my body was something that I had to fight against, that

00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,920
feelings of hunger or feelings of being unsatiated was something that I had to battle against.

00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:06,320
It's actually a body trying to tell you something and you can probably get a lot more out of

00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,560
listening to those messages than fighting against them.

00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:16,240
These days, do you still hear that kind of talk between athletes where it's about how

00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:21,560
little you've ate or things like that?

00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,920
Definitely not to the same.

00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,640
No, I think the rhetoric has changed a lot, honestly.

00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:33,240
Weight management and weight loss is a part of climbing at the end of the day.

00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:38,120
I think it's silly to pretend that it's not and it's something that as an athlete, you

00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,320
do have to be aware of, I guess.

00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:48,320
But I think the discussions are becoming a lot healthier and I think the discussions

00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:56,640
I've been having with athletes are a lot more about what I've been saying.

00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:01,560
In the past, it might have been like, oh, when I am really hungry, I do this to make

00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:07,480
myself not hungry anymore or when I feel like I've eaten too many calories, I'm going to

00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,120
do this to get rid of those calories.

00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,680
That kind of used to be the discussion and now the discussion is more about like, yeah,

00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:17,540
when I'm feeling this way, I remember that this is my body trying to tell me something

00:59:17,540 --> 00:59:22,400
and that I need to change what I'm doing or I'm going to start to fall down a slippery

00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:23,400
slope.

00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:28,560
So it's a lot healthier, the discussion around it, which is an important step.

00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:34,160
But then at the same time, I think that doesn't mean that athletes aren't also suffering in

00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,400
the background.

00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,680
You can say one thing and then also be struggling.

00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,680
Yeah.

00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,000
Well, it's good to hear that it's improved a bit.

00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:52,640
And also related to this, had a Discord question come through asking what dichotomies, if any,

00:59:52,640 --> 01:00:00,640
are there in regards to the impact of Red-Ass between men and women competition climbers?

01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:08,880
This is another really interesting aspect of it as well, because I think the pressures

01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:19,280
to be small are similar across male and female athletes.

01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:25,320
I think in the discussions around Red-Ass though, people tend to be more critical of

01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:30,740
women, which I mean, lo and behold, that's kind of how our society is in general.

01:00:30,740 --> 01:00:32,360
People are more critical of women.

01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:37,880
But yeah, with regard to Red-Ass, there's a lot more discussion of how female athletes

01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,040
look and whether they look too skinny.

01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,320
They look like, oh, she has a problem, she's anorexic.

01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,480
But then in actual fact, I think the problem is just as big, if not bigger, within the

01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:51,720
men.

01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:57,320
But because when we lose weight, we maintain our muscle mass a lot more easily.

01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,740
So our general shape doesn't change.

01:00:59,740 --> 01:01:03,240
We still have these big biceps and big shoulders.

01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:08,280
And so people think that it's not as much of a problem within the men.

01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,440
But from my experience, that's just not the case.

01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:19,520
And I think we see a lot of men, if not more men, with dangerously low body fat levels

01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:26,080
as opposed to the women who look thin but maybe aren't necessarily suffering those Red-Ass

01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,080
symptoms.

01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,560
And so I think that's why developing screening is really important because you can't just

01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,680
tell if someone's sick by looking at them.

01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:40,360
Yeah, I think that also brings up the important point that it's not great to discuss people's

01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:48,720
bodies, whether or not you think that it's concerning because there might not be an issue.

01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,200
Yeah, for sure.

01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:58,320
I think it's really complicated to like, because if you're going to bring up the fact that

01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:04,900
you think there is an issue with climbing athletes being underweight, that's inherently

01:02:04,900 --> 01:02:07,840
bringing bodies into the conversation.

01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:13,520
But yeah, I think it needs to be a little bit more nuanced than this person looks like

01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:14,520
they're sick.

01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,840
It needs to be a little bit more objective and scientific than that, I guess.

01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:22,320
Yeah, and it's hard to do that just looking through a screen.

01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,880
Yeah, 100%.

01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:29,160
But yeah, was there anything else you wanted to touch on in terms of Red-Ass?

01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,880
Because otherwise we're just going to totally shift gears to maybe something a little happier.

01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,600
Yeah, I know, what a depressingly sad topic.

01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:47,360
No, I mean, unless you have any more questions about it, I think it's a huge issue within

01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,280
climbing that we need to get on top of.

01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:55,120
And I think having, we talk about not judging people's bodies, but then at the same time,

01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,120
a lot of these athletes are the role models of the sport.

01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:05,560
And I think my inclinations as a young person towards trying to lose weight, a lot of them

01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:10,720
came from looking at the athletes who were leading the way, at the tops of podiums and

01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,400
things and seeing their body types and feeling like I needed to adhere to some kind of version

01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:16,400
of that as well.

01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:30,440
And so if we're allowing Red-Ass athletes who embody these sort of negative weight loss

01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:36,480
principles to represent the sport, then the problem is just going to self-perpetuate.

01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:48,480
So I think we've got to do something to change the perception that people have of climbing.

01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:56,120
And it might involve restricting the participation of certain athletes who meet certain criteria

01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:57,120
within the sport.

01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:58,680
Yeah, well put.

01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,960
And thanks for going into your own story.

01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,920
I know that's not always easy to share and open up in that way.

01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,320
So I appreciate that.

01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:16,600
But yeah, let's switch gears into something that's hopefully a bit less sad.

01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:24,080
Let's look forward to the Olympics that are coming up and the qualification process.

01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:32,280
I guess first of all, you had also wanted to, I mean, you were competing at the time

01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:36,520
when the 2021 Olympics were happening.

01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:42,800
And I saw a podcast that you did a long time ago that was before the qualification process

01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:43,800
for that.

01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:51,400
I forget if it was before COVID or not, but I think, I mean, we all know that you did

01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,220
not end up representing Australia for the 2021 Olympics.

01:04:56,220 --> 01:05:00,720
So what happened in the qualifying process there?

01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:08,400
It's funny, so this is also like a very sad, depressing topic.

01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:15,800
I'm happy to get into it if you want to, but it's also like, yeah, it was a bad time.

01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,320
Yeah, I mean, no, it's if you want to.

01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,440
Oh yeah, I'm happy to discuss it.

01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:25,240
Yeah, just if you wanted to get into something more fun, like it's not really that fun.

01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,360
Okay, we'll do the fun part after.

01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:37,440
So yeah, so basically going into the qualifications for the Tokyo Olympics, I was also the first

01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:38,440
seated athlete.

01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,760
So I was the highest ranked athlete going into those qualifications and then the pandemic

01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,660
hit and the event got canceled slash postponed.

01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:53,440
And so essentially the way the selection criteria worked was that if the event got canceled,

01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,360
I was qualified for the Olympics.

01:05:55,360 --> 01:06:00,960
If the event went ahead, then it was obviously going to be a competition and whoever won

01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:02,520
the event was going to go to the Olympics.

01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:07,360
But the problem there was that because within Australia and New Zealand, everything was

01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:12,680
so tightly locked down and the borders were so tightly controlled that running an event

01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,880
wouldn't necessarily mean that everybody would get to compete.

01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,480
So it was quite like a difficult time with things going back and forth.

01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:25,240
The event was happening, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't.

01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:34,360
And eventually we got to the point where the event was going ahead and we all got there.

01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,440
The first day went kind of badly for me.

01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:42,720
I think I false started in the speed, which meant that I had the worst ranking in the

01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,920
brackets for the finals event.

01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:51,840
And then we were sitting in my hotel room, I was sitting there in my hotel room with

01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:58,240
my partner, watching the news before the finals started and they announced on the news that

01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:04,760
the borders would be closing between all the states across Australia.

01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:08,960
Meaning that basically you either had to like, because we were in Sydney and I live in Melbourne,

01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:15,320
so we were going to have to leave Sydney to get back over the border in time or either

01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:22,760
be stuck in Sydney or have to like go through a two week hotel quarantine scenario.

01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:27,920
And my older sister at the time had just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer.

01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:36,800
And so my parents really wanted me home to spend Christmas with my family and with my

01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,840
sister before she started chemotherapy, before she started her treatment.

01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:45,760
And so I went to the competition, I went into finals for isolation and I had no idea what

01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,680
to do.

01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:53,840
And I was in tears the whole time, went out to climb, didn't do well in the speed round

01:07:53,840 --> 01:08:00,280
and like ultimately made the decision that I would leave the event, go home to be with

01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,000
my family because I wasn't sure if I would be able to qualify and I couldn't decide.

01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,000
Yeah, it was just a horrible, tough decision.

01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,180
So at the end I left the event.

01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:14,840
And at the end of the event, I think out of the 20 athletes that were initially slated

01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:19,920
to compete in the men's round, only seven men I think ended up finishing the competition

01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,320
and maybe even less women.

01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:28,300
Yeah, so that was like a really, really like tough call and something that I like grappled

01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:31,120
with for a really, really long time afterwards.

01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,000
And like I look back and I still don't even really know if I made the right decision on

01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,840
whether or not I should have stayed and stuck it out and like dealt with those consequences

01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,440
or gone home and been with my family.

01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:45,440
But you know, I think now I look back at it at the end of the day, like it is what it

01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:47,760
is, what happened happened.

01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:52,240
Toma Halloran who did qualify for the spot was like super deserving as well, you know,

01:08:52,240 --> 01:09:00,760
like whether or not I'd stayed, he was absolutely, you know, had exceptional chances to take

01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,960
that spot like he did in the end.

01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:08,640
But yeah, no, so that was like a super, super tough time.

01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,680
The whole process going into it was really, really hard.

01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:16,680
A lot of like back and forth and people saying things online and all sorts of stuff and it

01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:17,760
was really, really tough.

01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:23,480
But yeah, and then but then afterwards, you know, I once the process of trying to qualify

01:09:23,480 --> 01:09:29,360
was over, I was able to like really grow from that and ended up having some like really,

01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:30,360
really great World Cup season.

01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,480
So, you know, there's positives to take from it, but it was like, yeah, it was a pretty

01:09:33,480 --> 01:09:37,480
full on experience over the course of like a year or so, I think.

01:09:37,480 --> 01:09:38,840
Geez, yeah.

01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,160
Well, gosh, I'm sorry to hear that.

01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,000
I hope she's doing better now.

01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:52,360
She's doing she's doing she's still you know, the battle continues, but you know, she's

01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:53,360
doing well.

01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:54,360
Okay.

01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,760
Well, that's good to hear at least.

01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:58,760
We wish the best for her.

01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:06,720
Yeah, like I said, you know, yeah, also a very kind of depressing topic for the podcast.

01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,640
Yeah, we can we can move on to happier stuff as well if you want to.

01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:11,640
Okay.

01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:12,640
Well, thank you for sharing.

01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:19,360
I think usually when people look back on these things, they're usually happy about making

01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:25,640
the decision to like stick with family, especially in hard times.

01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:27,400
And I mean, you have another chance now.

01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:28,800
So yeah, yeah.

01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:34,120
And so it was, you know, I think it was quite interesting coming into this Olympics because

01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,880
there was all this Olympic selection process is there was like definitely a little bit

01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:43,160
of trauma from the last time of that whole process happening.

01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:50,800
But like, I was able to like recognize that, you know, this is something that I really

01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:52,040
want.

01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,840
And I was really excited about this process rather than last time where it was so full

01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,400
of like dread and grief and indecision.

01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,100
Like this time it's been fulfilled with like so much passion and ambition.

01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:05,680
And I'm really excited about this opportunity.

01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:11,040
And you know, if I don't qualify in November, then I'm also really excited about the opportunity

01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,000
to get to do the Olympic qualifier series next year, hopefully.

01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:20,000
And so it's just like as sad and depressing and whatever as that whole last experience

01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,680
was, you know, and everything that I was going through at that time.

01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:31,000
I'm like so much healthier and so much stronger and happier now that like, yeah, this this

01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:37,360
process so far is has been really joyful, which is such a juxtaposition to the last

01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:38,360
one.

01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:39,760
So I'm like super grateful in that sense.

01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:41,920
Yeah, that's really great to hear.

01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:47,360
And how do you feel about competing this time without the speed discipline being added into

01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:48,360
everything?

01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:49,480
Oh, so good.

01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:50,480
So good.

01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:56,720
I think that was like also part of the last process was that I had a really hard time

01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:01,000
making up my mind as to whether or not I actually wanted to do the combined format.

01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:07,560
I just I really appreciate and respect speed climbing, but it's just not for me.

01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:12,720
And so yeah, that was also something I was grappling with through that whole process

01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,400
is like as hard as it was.

01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,960
I wasn't my heart wasn't completely in it.

01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:22,400
Whereas this time with the lead boulder combined, like that's the those are the disciplines

01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:23,520
that I fell in love with.

01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:28,000
And so, yeah, my heart really is in this one 100 percent.

01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:34,840
And I'm able to like enjoy the process of it as a result, not just like, you know, not

01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:39,480
just looking towards the outcome, but also enjoying the journey.

01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:45,440
It's a little bit of a shame as a viewer, just because it was actually pretty fun watching

01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:50,840
non speed climbers and seeing how well they could do on the speed route, since it's just

01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:57,240
so much more, I guess, like consistent and you can just like interesting to see.

01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:03,520
So but I understand, of course, like it's not people don't really want to do it if they're

01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:04,920
not into it.

01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:05,920
Yeah.

01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,120
And I'm glad that the speed climbers get their own medal this time, because I think that

01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,800
combined format like really shafted them.

01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,000
Oh, yeah.

01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,000
So yeah, it's really nice that they get to have their own set of medals this time.

01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,600
And I think everyone's a little bit happier for it.

01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,520
I think we'll be even happier when the three disciplines are split.

01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,480
This combined format is fun.

01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:27,480
I think it's really cool.

01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:30,760
I think it's fun to watch and like I'm enjoying it so far.

01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:31,760
Yeah.

01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:36,240
Do you have hopes for it getting split in like LA games?

01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:45,040
From what I understand, that's the plan is to get three medals for the LA games.

01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,600
And that would be quite cool.

01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:53,400
Like also, you know, having multiple opportunities to claim an Olympic spot as well, like you

01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,120
claim a spot in Boulder or lead rather than just the one for both.

01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:02,920
That's like quite cool as well, because it is a lot of pressure to, you know, just try

01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:07,600
and perform really well across both disciplines and to take one spot.

01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:08,600
Yeah.

01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,320
Do you think if it is split in the future, you'll try for both?

01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:12,600
Yeah, I think so.

01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:13,600
I think that's my plan.

01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:25,480
It's something I'll probably have to decide, you know, come the next selection cycle.

01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:29,200
But I think I would like to try and qualify for both.

01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,040
But at the end of the day, I'm much more of a lead specialist than a Boulder specialist.

01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:38,800
And so if I feel like also doing bouldering is going to be detrimental to my chances in

01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:40,680
lead, that might impact my decision.

01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:45,080
I've always done both, so I would imagine that I would still try to do both.

01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:46,080
Okay.

01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:52,800
Yeah, I think it would be interesting to see how things change, because I would think a

01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:58,720
lot more people will probably try to just focus on one.

01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:04,200
And then it'll be interesting to see how that plays out, because I mean, a lot of people

01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,300
are great at both right now.

01:15:06,300 --> 01:15:11,720
And I wonder what it would look like if they just focused on one, all of their energy,

01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:12,720
onto one.

01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,720
If it'd be unstoppable.

01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:16,440
Yeah, I agree.

01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:20,840
Yeah, I'm also really curious to see what people do.

01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:25,880
I think there are probably a few more, generally speaking, there are more like Boulder specialists

01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:28,640
than there are lead specialists.

01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:37,040
So I wonder if the participations across the disciplines will shift as well.

01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:38,800
But yeah, I guess we'll see when it happens.

01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:43,680
You got to think about some strategy going into that.

01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:51,760
But I think that's quite in the future, another five years, so we have some time.

01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:58,280
Thinking about the upcoming one, how do you think your training would change if you qualified

01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:07,360
in the Oceania Championships versus if you had to wait again until OQS?

01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:12,880
I think either way, I'll be taking a little break right after that comp, which will be

01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:14,960
nice.

01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,280
And then the season will start again, either way, the season will start up again quite

01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:20,920
soon.

01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:29,080
I think if I'm competing in the OQS, the training will kick off sooner because the first OQS

01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:36,720
round is in April or May, I think.

01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:43,760
But I mean, either way, my mindset at the moment is just to go in 110%.

01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:50,320
I think my chances of qualifying in the Continental event are obviously exponentially higher than

01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,440
they are in the OQS, for instance.

01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:56,960
But the way I look at it now is just whatever happens, I'm going to be 110% committed to

01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,640
either competing in the Olympic Games or grabbing a ticket at the OQS.

01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,600
And I want to finish feeling like I didn't leave anything behind.

01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:10,760
So I don't think there'll be too many changes to my approach in that respect.

01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:11,760
While we're rooting for you.

01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:12,760
Yeah, thank you.

01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,800
What do you think, what's considered a break for you?

01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:22,920
Because I feel like a break for proper athletes is very different from what I consider a break.

01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:28,000
Well I have like a little trip to New Zealand planned where I think I will do little to

01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,880
no climbing.

01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:38,560
Usually a break will be like one to two weeks of no climbing at all.

01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:43,440
And then maybe one to two weeks of climbing when I want to.

01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:44,440
It's kind of what I do.

01:17:44,440 --> 01:17:48,520
So I wouldn't say I'm taking a break, I just climb as much as I feel like climbing.

01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:56,120
I think if I wasn't an athlete, I probably wouldn't climb quite as much as I do.

01:17:56,120 --> 01:18:00,320
I wouldn't be doing double sessions, five days a week, blah, blah, blah.

01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:04,440
I'd probably just be climbing three to four days a week for a couple of hours and trying

01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:06,720
the boulders that I think are fun and that sort of thing.

01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,400
So yeah, a break is just embracing that side of myself.

01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:14,280
And sometimes I get to the end of a season, I have three days off and I'm like, no, I

01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:15,280
want to go climbing.

01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:20,640
And then I think last year I got to the end of my season and I took two weeks off with

01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,640
no climbing and I had to like force myself to go back.

01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:26,040
Okay, it's time to start training again.

01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:27,040
So it depends.

01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,720
But I just go with the flow and do what feels right.

01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:32,520
Yeah that sounds reasonable.

01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:37,920
Okay, well I'm excited to watch you climb.

01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:40,720
Hopefully it'll be streamed and easy to watch.

01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,920
Yeah, there should be a live stream on YouTube.

01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,680
I think it'll be open access for everybody.

01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:47,680
Awesome.

01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:50,640
Okay, yeah, excited to watch.

01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:56,120
And now going into the last section, a few discord questions.

01:18:56,120 --> 01:19:01,400
I already went through a few while we were just talking, but we have I think three others

01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:04,800
that either just like didn't really fit.

01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:10,800
So the first one, this one I just I actually have no idea about.

01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:15,400
It relates to climbing in Australia, I think outside as well.

01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,840
I don't know how much outside climbing you do.

01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,440
I don't tend to climb outside a lot these days.

01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:27,720
When I was in my teens, I did a lot of rock climbing, but nowadays not so much.

01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:28,720
Okay.

01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:32,320
Well, you probably still have a bit of insight into it.

01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,920
Do you feel like climbers are used as an easy target by state governments in regards to

01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:44,280
Aboriginal heritage because there is societal outgroup and it deflects away from other more

01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:49,520
severe sources of harm to Aboriginal communities such as the mining industry?

01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:54,840
Oh, I'd say yes and no.

01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:55,840
Yes and no.

01:19:55,840 --> 01:20:02,640
I think, yeah, I think there are definitely people within certain organizations that do

01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:14,120
use climbing as a scapegoat to either reduce access to certain areas.

01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:21,360
But I think at the same time, climbing and climbers need to acknowledge the role that

01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:27,120
we play in the protection of First Nations heritage within Australia and within other

01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,640
countries as well.

01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,120
And that is going to mean not climbing in certain areas.

01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:39,400
I think anyone who's been to the Grampians, who's climbed in crags like kindergarten or

01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:44,520
Muleine or the gallery, you look at these caves and it's impossible to think that over

01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:51,240
the course of 90,000 years of history that people haven't lived and died in these caves

01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:55,640
and that they aren't sacred spaces.

01:20:55,640 --> 01:21:01,560
And I think to some degree, bolting them and covering them with chalk and doing whatever

01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:08,680
we do is to some degree desecrating these places that were taken by First Nations people

01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,600
through horrific genocides.

01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:15,360
So yeah, I think it's important that as climbers we acknowledge the role we have to play and

01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:18,400
sometimes it's going to mean not climbing in certain areas.

01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:30,000
I think on the other hand though, there are instances where state bodies maybe could,

01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:34,000
maybe we could be putting in a little bit more work to ensure that we are keeping climbers

01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:40,400
out of the right areas and then still providing everybody access to areas that are safe for

01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:45,720
us to recreate in without damaging cultural heritage, if that makes sense.

01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:50,840
Yeah, and I guess for context, what are some of the restrictions that have been put in

01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:53,960
place?

01:21:53,960 --> 01:22:02,440
A lot of the Grampians has just become a subject to straight up no climbing bands or certain

01:22:02,440 --> 01:22:08,560
areas you can only climb in if you have a guide with you.

01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:18,040
I definitely wouldn't say I'm a foremost expert on this topic, but yeah, I think different

01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:23,160
people within different organisations have varying ideas of what climbers should and

01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:24,680
shouldn't have access to.

01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,520
I think some of which is very, very valid.

01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:35,000
Some of these climbing spaces are quite close to protective cave paintings and sacred sites.

01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:39,360
And yet, like I said, it makes sense that we aren't able to climb in those spaces because

01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:45,760
a white European settlement only came to Australia within the last two centuries.

01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:55,440
So we have to be respectful of the land that we find ourselves upon.

01:22:55,440 --> 01:23:00,920
But yeah, at the same time, I think there's also, yeah, there's room to make these assessments

01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:06,960
of these places and ensure climbers that where it is safe for us to climb, that we will have

01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:08,920
access to those spaces.

01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:11,200
Okay, makes sense.

01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:14,000
Yeah, next question.

01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:17,240
What are your thoughts on U-Bank grading?

01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:21,600
I think it's far easier to understand than most other grading systems.

01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:30,220
And being open-ended is a bonus that avoids the muddled lower end of our UK trad grades.

01:23:30,220 --> 01:23:34,600
So if you could also go into what the grading system is like, because I'm not very familiar

01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:35,600
with that.

01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:36,600
Yeah.

01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:41,360
Well, I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit in that the U-Bank grade

01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:43,840
is just super easy.

01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:48,080
It's just a number system.

01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:55,760
So for instance, I think a 8A European sports grade is a 29 in Australia.

01:23:55,760 --> 01:24:03,280
8A plus is 30, 8B is 31, so on and so forth, 32, 33, 34.

01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:08,040
Although I feel like because I spend so much time climbing overseas, I tend to default

01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:11,200
into the European grading anyway.

01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:22,400
Yeah, I think, I mean, at the end of the day, grading is all subjective and it kind of ends

01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:28,080
up equating more or less to the same thing anyway.

01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:32,880
I think it is kind of nice that U-Bank doesn't have these cluster grades in the same way

01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,880
that the United States have got 513, 514.

01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:43,640
You have these brackets, the U-Bank system just kind of progresses point by point.

01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:45,680
But grades are grades.

01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:47,920
It's all much for muchness in the end.

01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:48,920
Yeah.

01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:49,920
Yeah.

01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:54,880
Next question, something we actually didn't touch on too much, but this is your chance

01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:59,760
to go into it if you want.

01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:02,960
I'm interested in your views on pro climbing and queerness.

01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:07,720
Is it an easy community to be openly LGBTQ plus in?

01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:13,600
And how does it feel competing in countries where it's frowned upon or illegal?

01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:17,840
I believe one of the OQS is in the Middle East, for example.

01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:23,520
I think that for the most part, I found the climbing community quite accepting of me as

01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,000
a queer person.

01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:29,520
That's not to say that there isn't homophobia and discrimination within the community.

01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:37,720
I think that's more accentuated at the international level because like you said, you have this

01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:42,360
mixing part of all these different cultures.

01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:49,040
Some people are going to feel less strongly about your human rights, love for you, love

01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:50,360
for you, that sort of thing.

01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:52,040
It can be quite scary.

01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,400
I was competing in the world championships in Russia a few years back.

01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:03,480
Yeah, it can be quite scary that I'm someone who paints my nails and maybe someone on the

01:26:03,480 --> 01:26:10,520
street might see that as a sign that I'm a queer person and have an issue with it or

01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:16,040
that people will see me and my partner at a competition and have an issue with that.

01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:24,840
So there are definitely certain aspects to it that we as queer people have to take into

01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,680
consideration a little more than others do.

01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:34,480
But yeah, for the most part, I think my experiences as a queer climber have been quite positive.

01:26:34,480 --> 01:26:42,320
I think most of the controversy comes when I try to discuss my queerness and my athleticism

01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:46,680
or my climbing in the same vein.

01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:51,200
I can sometimes get a lot of negative feedback and that people saying that being gay doesn't

01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:52,840
have anything to do with climbing.

01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:58,560
But at the end of the day, they're two important facets of who I am.

01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:02,360
So they don't, none of it exists in a vacuum.

01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:07,840
So yeah, it's an interesting interplay, I guess.

01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:13,760
Has it ever affected you to the point where you have to sort of consider if a competition

01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,240
is one that you would want to go to?

01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:30,160
Yeah, I definitely had an internal battle, I guess, with regard to whether or not I would

01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:34,920
go and compete in Russia.

01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:42,880
I'm an ambassador for an organization in Australia called Proud to Play.

01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,120
And one of the things that I have of theirs is I have this, it's just like a towel, like

01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:49,680
every athlete comes out to a bouldering round almost with a towel, they can clean their

01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:50,740
shoes and stuff.

01:27:50,740 --> 01:27:52,720
My towel has a pride flag on it.

01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:57,680
And there are some countries where I'm like, oh, I don't know if I should come out onto

01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,000
the field wearing this pride flag.

01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:04,320
But then at the same time, maybe it's even more important that I come out onto the field

01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:10,220
wearing a pride flag in some of these countries.

01:28:10,220 --> 01:28:15,960
So yeah, it's something that I have to think about.

01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:21,840
And I think the OQS round in the Middle East got canceled in the end.

01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:27,080
I think now it's just Shanghai and Budapest.

01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:34,160
But yeah, it is something that I have to think about when it comes to making a decision about

01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:37,200
which comps to attend to and which not.

01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:41,720
And did they replace it with a different location or it's just gone?

01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,720
Unfortunately, we're just going to have two rounds of the OQS now, which is good because

01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:49,520
for a little while, I think the fear was that there was going to be one round.

01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:50,960
Yeah.

01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:56,440
So yeah, it should be, as far as the dates that have been confirmed at this stage, yeah,

01:28:56,440 --> 01:28:59,280
it'll be the two rounds of the OQS.

01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:03,960
So a little bit shorter than the planned three, but should still be good.

01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:04,960
Okay.

01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,240
All right.

01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:10,400
I think that's all of the questions I had.

01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,280
Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on?

01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:15,400
Yeah, it's been fun.

01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:16,400
Happy to be here.

01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:17,600
Thanks for having me on board.

01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,160
And I'm glad we managed to get together and have this chat.

01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:25,280
And I'm looking forward to seeing the full piece.

01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:27,600
Yeah, thank you for joining me.

01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:31,200
Is there anything you want to like shout out or let people know where they can find you?

01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:32,200
Yeah.

01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:36,440
I mean, if anyone wants to follow me, you can find me on Instagram at Campbell underscore

01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:38,840
Harrison five four seven.

01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:43,200
That's probably the best way to keep track with keep up with what I'm doing.

01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:44,840
Yeah.

01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:48,960
Otherwise no, I think that's like, yeah, that's everything.

01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,560
Unless you have any more questions, I'm happy with that.

01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:53,560
Awesome.

01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:54,560
Okay.

01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,080
That was amazing to talk to you.

01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:57,080
Yeah.

01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:58,080
Thank you so much.

01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:00,880
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.

01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,960
If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the

01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:06,720
comments below.

01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:09,840
And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.

01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:14,960
If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and

01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:20,800
you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing discord linked in all

01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,840
the descriptions through all the platforms.

01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:29,840
Thanks again for listening.