22: Noah Makaiwi, Head Belayer

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We do belay stretches.

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We stretch our neck.

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So it's always like the first climber

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has like a little bit of like,

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do I remember how to do this?

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B category climbers prefer not to have like a super soft

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and like graceful fall.

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They would rather just be caught

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so they can feel that the rope is catching them.

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There was one climber that made contact with the ground

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from like the second or third bolt.

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Welcome to another episode

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of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

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I'm your host Jinni,

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and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today,

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Noah Makaiwi.

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Noah is the assistant belay coordinator at USA Climbing,

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and he has volunteered belayed nationally

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and internationally at IFSC Youth Worlds in 2022.

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In this episode, we'll learn about

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how to get into volunteer belaying,

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some interesting tidbits on belay devices

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and catching falls that you may not have thought about before,

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what some of the differences are between belaying

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for different pair climbing classifications,

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and some of the bad catches and falls

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that he has had to witness.

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Hope you enjoy this episode with Noah.

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["The Bling World"]

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A lot of the audience is international,

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and I think even in general,

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people don't really know too much about the belaying world,

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so I think this will be a good opportunity

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to get into that stuff.

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But before we get into the details of that,

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how did you get into climbing and volunteering and belaying?

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Yeah, so starting with climbing,

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I've only been climbing for coming up

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to five years in December,

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so I haven't been climbing for too long.

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I started before that just like in the outdoors.

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I did canyoneering,

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which kind of ties into belaying a little bit,

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but canyoneering, just like slot canyons and rappelling

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and going down very narrow sandstone,

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was where I started of like,

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oh, this is really cool,

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just like high stress adventure outdoors

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then leaning towards.

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Yeah, just like got a gym membership off a whim

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of like being a Coloradan,

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you kind of are obligated to participate

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in outdoor recreation,

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and climbing is one of those things

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that you sometimes, some people will participate in.

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So I had a lot of friends that were into climbing,

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and then I just thought, I think I would enjoy this.

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I like canyoneering, I like,

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I have rope technique already baseline.

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So moved from that to then climbing,

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and then just fell in love with the ways

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that the community interacted with itself,

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and then with the outdoors is what made me stick.

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And then getting into competition belaying was my gym,

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but as a member at, they had a regional,

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or it was kind of a divisional event.

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It was weird because it was like right after COVID,

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so in 2021, I think it was May or June of 2021,

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I just was a random volunteer on a signup genius,

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and-

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It's often like that.

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Yeah, I initially was not picked to belay,

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like the head belayer who became my mentor

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after a little bit, Sil Hulbert was like,

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hey, we had a really crazy round last round,

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and I asked the belayer from last session

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to stick around for the second session,

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and I sadly like because of just the climate

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of the competition, I really don't have a space for you,

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and I thought, okay, great, I guess I'll just go home,

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like I'd prepared for belaying that day,

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and then I was like, okay, bummer,

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maybe I'll see something else that I could do,

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and then I turned back around,

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and I said, I really wanna do this actually,

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I've seen competition climbing,

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yeah, I really wanna belay,

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I would like to belay maybe after this event nationally,

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and he said, I don't know,

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I'll see if I can get you on the team,

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and then his daughter bowed out from that round,

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and then he was like, hey, my daughter didn't wanna belay

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this round, so we have a spot for you if you wanna-

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Okay, great, like this seems super fun,

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and then I had like, I had a really good round

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my first round using a Grigri,

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which we'll get into belaying to my sis later,

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I'm pretty sure, but yeah, I was using a Grigri

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and giving soft catches, I remember there was one athlete,

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like as I was performing a catch,

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we collided a little bit, but overall, he was like,

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yeah, you have really good rope control,

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you don't short rope, you provide soft catches,

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this seems good enough for me,

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I'll give you a word for the national crew,

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so that's where it started was that one event.

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That was fast. Just signing up.

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Like what was the initial reason why he didn't want you

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to belay at first, like just because,

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I guess I don't really get why,

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because the round was crazy,

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they wanted to keep the same belayers for the second round.

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Yeah, this is something that happens a lot in like,

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Phil Holbert was in the head belayer role,

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when you're in the head belayer role,

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you kind of have to, if you are coming into another round

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knowing it's crazy and you have like other random people

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from the signup genius that have signed up for this round,

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like it's a lot harder to get them on the same page

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than just having the people from the previous session

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belay for the next round of like,

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hey, there's a lot of safety hazards,

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I would rather the people that are familiar

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with the safety hazards stay on their route

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for the next round rather than having to reorient

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the whole entire new belay crew for the next session.

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So I definitely understand his reasoning behind it, but.

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What were some of like the safety hazards?

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I think it just was like really tough catches on slab

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and like weird placement of draws

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and where the catch was happening.

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I didn't really see it.

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I wasn't really a part of the scene at that point.

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I just had belayed that one round

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and then, yeah.

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So I wasn't aware of what like safety

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or just like parts of the previous round

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that made it really challenging for this next round

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for me to possibly not get picked.

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But overall everything worked out

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and yeah, it's Alina's fault that I'm here.

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Ah, okay.

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So I think that's pretty funny.

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Well, it's kind of interesting.

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I guess I find it like pretty ballsy

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that you signed up to belay

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and then like explicitly said that you wanted to belay

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when you got turned away.

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Cause I think I've like volunteered in the past

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through like signup genius

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and you can sign up to belay and stuff.

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But I was like, I feel like this is something

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that should require some sort of, I don't know,

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course or clinic just to like keep things consistent.

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So I just signed up for judging instead

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or something like that,

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which seems a little bit less dangerous and risky.

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So it's interesting that you, I don't know,

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really wanted to do it so badly.

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I had been told I was a good belayer.

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So I was like, yeah, I think it'd be cool to try it

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in a competition setting.

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Like, I don't know.

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I don't know what to think about it.

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Yeah.

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And possibly that's just me speaking

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into the just my privilege, but also I think I,

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I did kind of know that I deserve to be there

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in terms of like, yeah, I'm a good belayer.

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I really want to try.

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I want to put in the work,

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which then also helped me get onto the team.

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So you started out, I guess, with no experience

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and then you kind of made your way in there.

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Now that comp climbing is a little bit more popular,

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I guess.

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Do you, are there ever going to be like courses

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or like qualifications that you need

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to become like a volunteer belayer?

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Yeah.

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So a lot of what has developed over time,

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like when I started, it was just me signing up

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on a signup genius for those that aren't familiar.

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It's just like a Google form that you can just add

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your name of, hey, I want to judge for this round.

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Or I want to help an ISO during this time slot.

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That's where the belayers would come from is just like

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either a parent that wanted to volunteer

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to help out with it or just for me was,

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I just wanted to belay.

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Yeah. So that's what it started.

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And then it's taken time to develop

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the belay program to then be something where

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if you are working like regionals or divisionals event,

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it's very helpful to have endorsements.

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We don't have a certification system,

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something to clear pretty readily.

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We don't certify people.

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What we do is we have vetted people, vet people.

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So people that have a lot of experience

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throughout all disciplines,

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like just going into how the series

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in USA climbing is broken down.

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A lot of it starts in the youth series,

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which is, it's like an IFSC for its own country

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where it's a big federation with small divisions

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and regions or divisions then broken down into regions.

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So there's, I believe there's 18 regions.

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And all of the United States, which is huge.

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So with the youth series,

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it's being broken down into 18 regions

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that then go into divisionals

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and then divisionals go into nationals for use.

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The way that we've broken down endorsement for belaying

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is people that have belayed at divisional events

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have more say or have more endorsement

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than people that have no experience.

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Like for me, if I had just randomly signed up

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for national events, I would probably be turned away.

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But because I had experienced at a divisional event,

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I was able to be on a national team

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within that same year of 2021.

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So yeah, kind of, I don't know

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if that's fully answering your question,

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but it used to be,

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it used to be just parents of athletes

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signing up to volunteer to belay for whatever reason.

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And then has now become more of a formalized system

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over time, which is like,

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I think it started more and more towards like 2018

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of when vetting became a part of growing into

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what the USA climbing national belay program looks like now.

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So yeah, all that to say, yeah,

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like there's been a lot of time to now take the space of,

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okay, the people that have worked national events

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can now be the people to endorse or to create teams

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for regional and divisional qualifying events

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before regionals to then work towards like,

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oh, who's gonna belay for national team trials,

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which is probably the most like premier event

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for the top athletes of the nation.

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And we like to have a lot of belay skill

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because there's a lot of belay skill needed

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if you're following any of national team trials

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this last year.

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Yeah, there was some rowdy qualification

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and semi-final routes.

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Do you feel like the current system of just like vetting

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the people you know at like regionals and divisionals

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is sufficient or do you feel like there needs to be

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more work towards like a certification process?

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I think it's hard to say a certification process would,

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I don't think it would not help

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or not serve athletes very well.

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I don't know if that's where we can create

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like the most like rigid standards.

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Endorsement I feel like is the most helpful

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because you can take a lot of people with varying abilities

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and like belay standards or just standards

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that people have for belaying differ

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throughout the whole entire country.

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Like working in a climbing gym, like my experience is

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you'll see people that have an old school style belay

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and that's like a supinated hand as their breakhand

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and then their other hand is just sliding rope through

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which is not the industry standard anymore.

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So for purposes of equity, if you are giving people

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with a lot of different abilities

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or different understandings of belaying,

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like instead of certifying them saying

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they fit this exact mold, giving a little bit of leniency

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to say like you don't have to fit this exact mold

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but these are the standards that we have

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like the pillars that we've made for the belay program

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is safety, consistency, professionalism.

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If you're following all three of those

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and using kind of the techniques

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and the yeah, technical safeguarding through that,

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you're able to create an environment

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where athletes are represented super well in their sport.

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Yeah, so I would say certification,

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I just think it's a thing on words.

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I prefer endorsement because it gives a little bit

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more ability for people to have different techniques

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or like different techniques or different styles for belaying.

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Yeah, I mean, I guess not everything needs

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like a whole process.

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And have you ever done it at like an IFSC level

00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,280
or is it just like national level?

00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,920
I have not traveled internationally for an IFSC event.

00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,920
I have worked three IFSC events.

00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,600
I worked two para climbing world cups

00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,680
and then youth world championships in Dallas in 2022.

00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,880
Awesome, so what are some of like the differences

00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,240
between doing it at a local or national level

00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,240
versus IFSC level?

00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,840
Are there like more restrictions with IFSC

00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,600
or is it pretty much the same?

00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,040
We have standards that we try to at least represent

00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,600
in the regional scene to then work towards

00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,880
national and international levels.

00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,960
Technically with international events

00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,960
is you're supposed to use a tube style device or an ATC.

00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,720
So a non-assisted braking device is the standard

00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:06,720
for international events and it's a huge conversational topic.

00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,320
Just because that's something that we have to fight a lot

00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,320
is for us in a competition climate

00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,560
to use a assisted braking device actually adds more issues

00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,040
and more concern for safety because especially

00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,320
with the styles of climbing that are happening

00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,400
on the international and national scene is very, very hard.

00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,520
At any point that we're catching a fall

00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,440
using an assisted braking device, there's a lot more.

00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,720
We have less control.

00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,720
It's like driving a manual car, like automatic.

00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,240
For like an automatic car, you're able to like press gas

00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,320
and press brake.

00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,600
So that's only so much control in terms of

00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,560
where you're positioning someone on the wall.

00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,040
So going back to the analogy is using a manual braking device

00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,560
or an ATC, you're able to say like,

00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,480
oh, there's a head wall that we're trying to lower

00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,800
the climbers down into rather than spiking into the wall.

00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,720
If you had an assisted braking device,

00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,360
you have no control over that other than just adding

00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:19,480
more slack into the system, which is a 50-50 chance

00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,240
that it will actually engage correctly in that time.

00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,480
So that's more of the nuances.

00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,120
Yeah, you'll see us working at an IFSC event like

00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,440
very rarely will there be an exception made,

00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,040
especially for like when we've worked

00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,120
Paraclimbing World Cups.

00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,640
We have a lot less margin to make catches safe

00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,640
for some of the athletes.

00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,480
And if we're using an assisted braking device,

00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,360
we have no control over that.

00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,440
I didn't know there was that much of a difference

00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,160
between using like an assisted one and like a regular ATC

00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,920
in terms of like the catches that you can do or,

00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,640
I mean, I thought it was both like for both of them,

00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,080
it was just you let out some more slack or less slack.

00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,040
So how does it make a difference like on the head wall example?

00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,200
Sure.

00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,200
So I think going back to like just the functions of both,

00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,520
how bling works is you as a person on the ground

00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,600
are modulating friction to stop the rope

00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,440
and how you stop the rope is where

00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:32,840
you're able to control that.

00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,400
So using an assisted braking device,

00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,920
it locks the rope at the time that the catch happens.

00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,880
Using an ATC or an manual braking device,

00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,360
you're able to let friction go into the system

00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,640
instead of it just locking.

00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,640
So I always use this, it's hard to like communicate it,

00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,040
but as a visual example,

00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,480
say that there's like an overhang here

00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,800
and there is a quick draw that's fixed

00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,280
kind of to the top of my hand.

00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,560
If a climber were climbing above this

00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,440
and there is this amount of rope here,

00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:09,800
if that climber were to fall,

00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,680
so say a climber were on an overhang

00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,960
and they were above or run out from the clip

00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,280
and they were to fall in a situation

00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,600
where it's a locked rope, it's just a straight circle.

00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,400
If you were using an ATC,

00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,280
you're able to allow some friction

00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,880
or some rope into that system instead of it locking.

00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,000
And instead of making a perfect circular shape,

00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,240
you're making more of a parabola,

00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,080
which ends up contributing a lot less force to the climber

00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,000
and negates a lot of the horizontal force

00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,240
back into the wall.

00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:46,240
So it's hard to verbally describe,

00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,120
but to visually describe,

00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,360
it's like, yeah, the difference between

00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,520
just like swinging super hard back into the wall.

00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,920
What we do in our technical abilities,

00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,600
we're able to use what is called dynamic rope control,

00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,480
where similar to rappelling,

00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,600
we're using your brake hand to add friction

00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,200
to the rope.

00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,680
You're able to lessen some of the friction,

00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,200
but also lower, slow the climber down.

00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,680
So instead of just the rope going taut,

00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,160
the rope is feeding a little bit through the device

00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,520
and through the system,

00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,560
so that the climber gets this super smooth.

00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,400
It doesn't feel like you're being caught.

00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,160
It feels like you're just done.

00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,360
Like having my friends,

00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,920
or like my belay friends belay me.

00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,920
It's just, it doesn't feel like you're falling for forever.

00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,040
It just feels like you're naturally just stopping your route

00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,080
and then being lowered right after that.

00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,120
So instead of just the rope going taut

00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,160
and you sliming back into the wall.

00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,560
Yeah, I guess I'm also,

00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,120
I think that's something I've heard before.

00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:01,560
I don't really know where,

00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,320
but that belayers try to lower,

00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,760
like catch and kind of lower at the same time.

00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,280
I thought I heard the reasoning was that

00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,440
it's to like get through people quickly.

00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,080
Is that the case or is it,

00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,000
I mean, I'm sure half of it is also just like a soft catch,

00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,160
but is it also like,

00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,680
you have to follow this timeliness factor?

00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,560
Sometimes, yeah.

00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,120
There are some event formats.

00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,120
You'll see a lot on like the qualifying event,

00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,680
regional and divisional scene here in the US for youth,

00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,120
or for collegiate qualifying national events.

00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:42,240
You'll see like what they call a no earlier than time.

00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,080
So it's like,

00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,720
they have this time that they're supposed to be here.

00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,000
If a route is running super long,

00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,920
say that like it's a slab route,

00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,160
that's super technical that requires the climber

00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,240
to be there for their,

00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,360
almost their entire climb time of six minutes,

00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,320
but that no earlier than time is like a four minute margin.

00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,080
You'll have a lot of,

00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,480
like if you're,

00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,640
if they're climbing to six minutes and then you catch them

00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,320
and then you slowly lower them

00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,160
and then you have to pull the rope through,

00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,720
you're adding like an additional minute or two.

00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,200
Some, sometimes in those instances,

00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,480
time is of the essence.

00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,600
So like getting people down fast is helpful.

00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,040
Another thing is for competition climbing,

00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,000
they're not trying the route again.

00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,920
You're just going straight into lowering.

00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,440
So what we'll do is we'll perform a catch

00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,840
in that catch, we'll do some lowering

00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,800
using dynamic rope control.

00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,040
We'll make sure that they have a safe stop

00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,400
and then we'll lower them to the ground,

00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,720
which is optically,

00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,640
it optically looks a lot safer

00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,160
than if they're just going straight from them falling

00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,280
to like their feet on the ground,

00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,280
which used to be the standard.

00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,760
Sometimes that happens still.

00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,520
Yeah, sometimes there's not much you can do

00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,160
in terms of the margin that you have to work with.

00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,480
Like if a climber is calling for rope,

00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,640
like chicken clipping, you have to give it to them.

00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,280
You can't like in a competition format,

00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,640
you can't say like, no, I'm not gonna give you this rope,

00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:10,480
I'm gonna short rope you.

00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,200
It's like, no, they're asking for it.

00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,760
They could possibly make a clip,

00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,360
but if they don't make that clip,

00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,560
there's possibility that they're gonna start heading down

00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:19,480
at a really quick rate.

00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,040
And yeah, sometimes they'll get their feet

00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,240
on the ground pretty quickly,

00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,080
but often it's nothing too forceful.

00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,360
And at least it shouldn't be like,

00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,040
if it is that that's an issue on the belayer or the belay team.

00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,880
Okay, cool.

00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,880
And I think a lot of people probably wonder

00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,840
if you ever get paid to belay

00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,000
or in general, how you manage to make it out

00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,320
to all of these comps around the US,

00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,160
because I mean, flights and accommodation aren't cheap.

00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160
So.

00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,880
Oftentimes I do not get paid to be there.

00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,400
As you work roles like head belayer

00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,320
is the administrative and team lead role

00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,920
that happens in a lot of events.

00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,360
So the structure of it is head belayer,

00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,560
assistant belayer and below that is line belayers.

00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,720
Through national USA climbing events,

00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,640
working as head belayer you get accommodations for travel,

00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,760
but at the moment we don't get paid.

00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,240
It's something that we do.

00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,560
Especially for us on the national belayer scene,

00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,800
like a lot of the team is made up of people

00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,480
that just love the,

00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,480
there is kind of a thrill that comes with belaying,

00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,480
but just like the love and the craftsmanship of belaying

00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,480
that they hone it to this ability that they're able to like,

00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,600
yeah, I want to come out to this event.

00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,440
So I've had the privilege to be able to go

00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,120
to a lot of events because either I've done

00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,680
an administrative role as head belayer

00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,720
as well as a working role as head belayer

00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,720
or as line belayers or people that are just belaying

00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,720
the event will get potential stipends for belaying the event

00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,880
in terms of travel.

00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,960
So it is made cheaper through that,

00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,920
but it is not free most of the time.

00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Well, it's good that a lot of people like you

00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,640
have the passion for belaying at least.

00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,160
And I mean, you do sometimes get like a couple of day passes

00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240
for volunteering, so there is that.

00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,240
Yeah, it'll be day passes at gyms that I will be able to go

00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,240
to again, like I wonder in the system,

00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,240
like all of the systems in the nation that I've been to,

00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,240
like how many day passes I've accrued.

00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,240
Yeah, well, I mean, you can maybe go back one day.

00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,240
Maybe.

00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,240
But yeah, going into, I guess, like the logistics,

00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,240
again of belaying, I guess maybe can you like walk me

00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,760
through the process you go through from when you get

00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,760
to the comp to when you're ready to belay?

00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,240
Like the first climber?

00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,240
Yeah, I will do this from the perspective of a head belayer.

00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,760
I recently did a divisional event this last weekend,

00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,240
so that's kind of fresh on my mind.

00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,240
Yeah, as head belayer, there's actually a lot of preparation

00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,240
that happens for national events and for divisional

00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,240
and regional events.

00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,760
You'll have more than a month of time to prepare.

00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,760
For national calls, like it's important to have the head

00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760
belayer attend those meetings because they go over all

00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760
of the logistics there.

00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,760
They're very familiar with how the rounds will go,

00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,760
and it's helpful to then decide the team that you need.

00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,760
So like, yeah, there's a lot of different needs

00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,760
for different events.

00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:00,760
Oftentimes, you'll see a flash format for lead

00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,760
for the qualification days, and there's a lot of different

00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,760
routes for that.

00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,760
Sometimes there's three, and sometimes it's red point

00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,760
modified, which not to go too in depth of what those mean,

00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760
but for flash format, climbers have the ability

00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,760
to watch a route preview and then climb the route

00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:26,760
and then go to their next route after ample rest time.

00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,760
So finding out the format of each round,

00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:37,760
is there qualifications, semifinals, and then finals round,

00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,760
and then checking with gyms.

00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,760
So a lot of the time, when we're working with national events,

00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:52,760
USA Climbing will take the liability of the safety

00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,760
just using the skill that they have, or like the skill

00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,760
that's deployed through the belayer team.

00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,760
A lot of gyms in the nation are assisted breaking device mandated.

00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,760
So say like the front in Salt Lake City or Mesa Rim

00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,760
in Texas or California.

00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,760
You'll see a lot of gyms or commercial gyms go towards

00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,760
this ABD mandate.

00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760
For us in our profession and our skill,

00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:30,760
we'll actually be able to use an ATC or a tube style device instead.

00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,760
So communicating that first off, because that's where we have

00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:41,760
like professional catches, that's where we have like the most safe catches.

00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:42,760
We'll communicate that.

00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,760
And then after that is the tracking ropes and systems.

00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:53,760
So that's a lot of pre-event planning is format.

00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,760
Devices and then ropes.

00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:03,760
And then after that is forming a team, which we have a pretty robust

00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,760
belayer roster as of now.

00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,760
When I started the belayer roster, I don't think existed.

00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,760
There is maybe some names on the sheet, but now it's like more than

00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:22,760
150 names of people that have been vetted to be able to be deployed

00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,760
for events either in their local scene or for national events.

00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,760
So there's five levels similar to route setting or to judging that

00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:40,760
people are able to either be vetted by an L4 or higher to then be a part of that.

00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,760
So creating the belayer team is really helpful or is the next step of the

00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,760
process, which takes a lot of, yeah, a lot of coordination of,

00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,760
okay, who is going to be in this area or who lives in this area that we can

00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,760
readily call on?

00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:57,760
Who has given them endorsement?

00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,760
What can we know about their belayer technique?

00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:08,760
And then after that is if there's no one else local that we wanted to deploy,

00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,760
who are we going to deploy from other regions or other parts of the nation

00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,760
to be a part of this event?

00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,760
And I think one thing that I really appreciate with the National Belay

00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Coordination is we've done really well to make it equitable instead of just

00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,760
like back in the day way before I was a part of it, it was an old boys club

00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,760
of just like, oh, we know Joe Schmoe.

00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,760
He can be a part of the team because he's our friend.

00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,760
And now it's like it's not necessarily a group of friends.

00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,760
Yeah, we do have friends that are a part of the scene, but it's just

00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,760
a lot of people that are passionate about belaying that can be a part of it.

00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,760
And I think like one of the things that I see a lot and I really appreciate

00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,760
is seeing a lot of women on the belay teams.

00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:02,760
As the program has developed, it's been less and less just like guys

00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,760
belaying guys and girls belaying girls or just whatever gender for whatever

00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:08,760
gender categories.

00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,760
It's like everyone can belay everyone with the skill.

00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,760
They're like when they have the appropriate skill.

00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,760
So I think that's been reasonable.

00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,760
Something that I'm hoping to see in this next or in the 2025 season is

00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:29,760
either an all women belay team or a women led belay team because I think

00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,760
that's cool.

00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:31,760
I don't know.

00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,760
I don't see that often in like a skilled climbing group.

00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:41,760
A lot of it is like, yeah, you'll see lots of men on the scene, which is

00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:42,760
not my biggest.

00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,760
It's not my favorite thing, but to see a lot of just like cultures,

00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,760
identities represented through the volunteers of belayers is awesome.

00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:55,760
I think it's super cool.

00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,760
I guess those are the logistics before the comp.

00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:04,760
When you're getting ready to belay the first climber, I guess what goes into

00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:05,760
preparing for the climber?

00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,760
Yeah, we usually will all meet up.

00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,760
We'll have a belay team meeting prior to the round or prior to the event,

00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,760
just saying like, this is the importance of this round.

00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,760
This is the people that are here.

00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,760
This is the skill that's represented from the belay crew, but also this is

00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,760
the playing field that we're working with.

00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,760
So like national team trials, the needs are different than like collegiate

00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,760
nationals.

00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,760
The skill at team trials is the best of the best.

00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,760
Collegiate nationals will have the best of the best for the most part, and

00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,760
also like people that are still really new to the scene.

00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:47,760
The collegiate series is getting more and more traction as climbing and

00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,760
sport has become more popular.

00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:56,760
So yeah, like the needs of those are very different.

00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,760
For collegiate nationals, you need a lot of skill of people that are still

00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,760
really new to lead climbing to people that are like the best.

00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,760
So that's the thing on the route setters to create separation through the

00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,760
routes themselves, but also make them safe.

00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:20,760
So you'll see it's a lot easier to clip one and two than it is to clip the

00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
first draw at national team trials.

00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,760
I mean, I would think that they would make it like easier for like national

00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:34,760
team trials or even like internationally too, just because, I don't know,

00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:35,760
why not?

00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,760
Yeah, I mean, well, the belay skill of the US has grown so much to the

00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:47,760
point where like route setters can rely on us to provide safety even through

00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:55,760
like a sketchy sequence off the deck, which we did see at the semifinals at

00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,760
national team trials where like there's an Instagram post on our Instagram

00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:06,760
USA belay of like me and Toby Monroe.

00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,760
We were working the semifinals route.

00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,760
There were a lot of climbers above first draw that fell.

00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:21,760
And it was like a very physically challenging and demanding sequence just

00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,760
like right off the deck.

00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,760
But that's because they knew, like the route setters knew that we could

00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:28,760
perform to that ability.

00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,760
So I understand like, yeah, clip one and two could be easy, but the route

00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,760
setters of USA climbing know what we can provide for them.

00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,760
And also the athletes are in this place.

00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,760
They know that they can rely on us to keep them safe.

00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,760
So that like athlete belayer connection through the last few years were able

00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,760
to represent like, hey, we'll keep you safe.

00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,760
You've never seen me before.

00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,760
You can trust me.

00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,760
Yeah, I'll try to find that video and link it so that I can watch it and so

00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:02,760
everyone else can watch it.

00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,760
But OK, that's good to know.

00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,760
So we had a belay team meeting.

00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,760
We go over like the field of athletes that are going to be there, the field

00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,760
of play, the round.

00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,760
So kind of recapping like all of the introduction stuff that we did over

00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,760
like a planning call.

00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,760
And then, yeah, when the round starts, it's just like, OK, great.

00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,760
We'll have these people assigned to this route, these people assigned to this

00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,760
route.

00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,760
We usually have two per route depending on how many people are able to make it.

00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,760
And then, yeah, we just keep going.

00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:45,760
So it'll start with like at tie in for like a non isolation format.

00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,760
It's just people will just review that their knot looks good.

00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,760
We look at a figure eight follow through with a stopper knot.

00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,760
We look at their harness to make sure it's double backed and then it's

00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,760
inappropriately.

00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,760
We'll look at their leg loops.

00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,760
So we'll do a quick what we call the belayers blessing.

00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,760
We'll say your knot looks good.

00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:02,760
Your harness looks good.

00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,760
Just as like a quick especially for people that don't speak English as their

00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,760
first language to be able to represent like, OK, this is your knot.

00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,760
This is what I'm looking at.

00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,760
This is your harness.

00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:12,760
This is what I'm looking at.

00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:13,760
You look good.

00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,760
So we'll we'll visually demonstrate like with the arm going down, not arm

00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,760
going to the side, your harness looks good.

00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,760
So our belayers blessing.

00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,760
We'll look at that and then we'll show our side.

00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,760
So it's just a buddy check that we facilitate those.

00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:29,760
Your stuff looks good.

00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,760
This is my belay device inside making sure that it's locked.

00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:39,760
Always showing that there's an audible click because, yeah, you want to

00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,760
represent that as you're going off to then belay them on the route that,

00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,760
yeah, I'm here.

00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,760
I'm making sure that the safety is correct.

00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,760
Yeah.

00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,760
So, yeah, they'll start climbing.

00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,760
We'll catch them.

00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,760
Once we've caught them, we'll lower them pretty quickly and then we'll

00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,760
detach from the system, tell them, go see your judges, and then we'll rinse

00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,760
or repeat up to a hundred times.

00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:06,760
Yeah.

00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,760
And I was wondering, and I think this was also it also came from like a

00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:11,760
disordered question.

00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:17,760
Do the athletes have any options when it comes to who belays them or is it

00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,760
just like randomly assigned?

00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,760
Yeah.

00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,760
So no.

00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,760
The question or the answer to that is no.

00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,760
The athletes have no choice in who belays them.

00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,760
And the reason for that is for fairness.

00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:37,760
And for us on the administrative side is we want to make sure that there's

00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,760
fairness for the athletes themselves.

00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,760
We have a lot of skills and techniques that we've developed that every single

00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,760
person is having a consistent experience.

00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:52,760
I guess, like, how does it provide an advantage other than, I guess, just

00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,760
like being like just knowing each other and maybe feeling comfortable in that

00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:56,760
way?

00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,760
Are there like other advantages that you could get from using the same belayer?

00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:03,760
Yeah.

00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,760
I would say like it's someone you know how they're going to operate.

00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,760
So you have a lot less unknown.

00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,760
Yeah.

00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,760
We won't let climbers have choice in their belayers.

00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:23,760
We will appropriately deploy belayers to be on specified routes.

00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:31,760
And the reason for that is we don't want to show preference to other climbers

00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,760
if we say like, oh, we're going to have this amazing belayer just belay this

00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:36,760
one athlete.

00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:43,760
That athlete is probably going to perform better just due to like them

00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:44,760
knowing this person.

00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:50,760
But the reason why we've worked really hard on the belay scene in terms of

00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,760
endorsement is at any point, if you are an athlete, you should feel confidence

00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,760
to climb as hard as physically possible and like forget that there's a belayer

00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,760
on the other side because they have so much skill.

00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:14,760
So that's one of the real big driving factors to this coordination or this USA

00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:21,760
climbing belay program that we've created is that at any point that a climber

00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:28,760
is on the wall, they should have the right to perform as hard as possible

00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,760
instead of feeling scared that their belayer on the other end is like not

00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,760
performing very well to the point where they're like possibly short roped or

00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,760
just like, I'm scared.

00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,760
I don't know who this person is.

00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,760
I don't know if they're going to catch me.

00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,760
We want to take that fear away from them through just showing that we have the

00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,760
optics of we're providing safe catches at any point.

00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,760
We are doing safety checks at every moment.

00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,760
We're like non-negotiable and then also just presenting ourselves professionally.

00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,760
Like you'll see us on the national scene wearing dark pants and a black shirt

00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,760
because it represents that like, hey, we dressed up for this occasion.

00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,760
Like we work hard to be here and we're working hard for you to have a good

00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:15,760
competition.

00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:26,760
Well, so how often do belayers make, I guess I wouldn't say like silly mistakes

00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:33,760
but or not like beginner mistakes, but just like mistakes like short roping or

00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,760
something like that when a competition is happening?

00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,760
On the national scene, no.

00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,760
On the divisional and regional scene, you'll possibly see it, but like for the

00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,760
student that we set for USA climbing is like you will have the best of the best

00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,760
belaying you.

00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:57,760
Like I in my career, belay career, I haven't seen anyone be short roped.

00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,760
I haven't short roped anyone nationally.

00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,760
I don't think, I mean, I don't think I've short roped anyone.

00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:04,760
No one has called me out on it.

00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,760
But like, yeah, people will start to get like, they'll start to zone a little bit

00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:16,760
or zone out where you'll just see like their focus is not 100%.

00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,760
Oftentimes on the belay or the head belayer side, I'll say like, hey, I'll

00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,760
sub in for you.

00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,760
Like go take a quick water break.

00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,760
And what you'll see is just people kind of not fully paying attention to their

00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:35,760
climber or just like, yeah, you'll, I don't know, you'll just kind of zone out

00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,760
because it's just like repetitive sometimes.

00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,760
I think that's the mistake, the mistake that you'll see often is just like a

00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,760
little bit of complacency or just a little bit of like not full focus on the

00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,760
climber.

00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,760
But oftentimes we'll correct that very quickly.

00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,760
Like, hey, you look like you need to go just like get a quick bite to eat or

00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,760
get a quick snack.

00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,760
This has been a super long round.

00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:06,760
Also been for you just to give, just to give the belayer some time to rest.

00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,760
All right.

00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,760
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,760
So for, if you're like familiar with the athletes or you know sort of their

00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:21,760
climbing style, do you ever have things in mind on like how to modify for that

00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:22,760
athlete?

00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,760
Like if a certain climber climbs really fast or maybe takes really big risks or

00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,760
always tries like weird beta breaks or something like that?

00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:38,760
If I know an athlete or climber, I will go through the same exact script every

00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:39,760
single time.

00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,760
Even if they like talk to me, like I'll try to keep conversation to a minimum

00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,760
of like, hey, this is great music that's playing or something, not a part of the

00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,760
competition.

00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,760
Yeah, I'll engage with for a little bit, but I always will go like you'll hear

00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,760
me say, my name is Noah.

00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:57,760
I will belay you today.

00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:58,760
Your knot looks good.

00:42:58,760 --> 00:42:59,760
Your harness looks good.

00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,760
This is my harness and device.

00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:02,760
You're locked.

00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,760
We're going to get out to the field to play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,760
I will do that for every single athlete regardless if I have known them for

00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,760
years or if I had just met them.

00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,760
And the reason for that is for consistency and professionalism because say you're a

00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,760
climber sitting on deck and you hear like a belayer saying like, oh, hey, blah,

00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,760
blah, blah, blah, blah, like how's your mom?

00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:24,760
How's your dad?

00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,760
How's your family?

00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,760
If you're that climber on deck, you'd be like, I have nothing in common with

00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:31,760
this belayer.

00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:37,760
As an example, this is not something that I've experienced, hopefully not.

00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:43,760
But yeah, even if I have seen them after the run, possibly I'll talk to them.

00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,760
But in the middle of a round, it's like, no, I'm on.

00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,760
I have my game face.

00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,760
I'm not going to participate in that even if I've known them for, belayed them

00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,760
for like every round and every event for the past like season.

00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,760
It's like, no, it's the same experience every single time.

00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,760
I'm belaying you after the fact.

00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,760
Sure, we can talk, but yeah.

00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,760
So that's the first part.

00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:14,760
The second part in terms of like modifying belayer technique, not necessarily.

00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,760
There will be more.

00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,760
There will be some athletes or climbers that I'll know.

00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,760
Okay, I know they will like throw rope up or they're asked for ropes super

00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:23,760
quickly.

00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:24,760
I have to be prepared for that.

00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:32,760
So yeah, I can modify my belay just like ability of, oh, I have situational

00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,760
awareness that this person looks like they're going to fall, but they're

00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,760
actually not going to fall.

00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,760
Or this person is chainsawing rope and I just have to like chuck rope at them.

00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,760
And then I take big risks.

00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,760
I have to provide a soft catch or safe catch for them.

00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,760
Yeah, there will be some athletes that like I see.

00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,760
There's one athlete that I have belayed for a handful of times and this athlete

00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,760
will often ask, hey, I'm going to do a jump start.

00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:07,760
So like almost every time, yeah, I won't name names because I don't think it's

00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,760
my place to say it, but this athlete will always say, hey, I'm going to jump

00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:12,760
start this.

00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,760
And I'll say, okay, I'll belay you, which I think is so funny.

00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,760
But yeah, there are some things to prepare for, but oftentimes the skill

00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,760
that we have is we just, we're prepared for anything.

00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,760
We're prepared for any sort of athlete.

00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,760
We're prepared for any weight difference between us and an athlete.

00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:39,760
If they're lighter or heavier, like that's where the advanced belay skill goes

00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,760
is how do you provide the same exact catch for every athlete, but also, yeah,

00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:46,760
remain professional.

00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,760
Yeah, well, it's good to hear that you kind of keep things consistent in that

00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,760
way.

00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:58,760
I do feel like if I were an athlete who like saw someone who had like great

00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:04,760
rapport with the belayer ahead of me, I would feel it would kind of like get in

00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:10,760
my head that, I don't know, it would just be weird and like put me in a weird

00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,760
space, I feel like.

00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,760
So that makes a lot of sense.

00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:20,760
It's like almost, I don't know, like a weird social game that's added to it.

00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:27,760
Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of us on the national belay side is head game

00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,760
is what we want to preserve for athletes.

00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:35,760
Like we don't want to get into any athlete's head of like, I'm not good

00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,760
enough for this route or blah, blah, blah.

00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,760
It's like, no, we're here to support you as a belayer.

00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,760
We're here to like, if they've seen us in previous rounds, they've seen that

00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,760
we've caught really safely.

00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,760
We have this belay skill.

00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:55,760
So we typically use optics as a metric for like any evaluation.

00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:01,760
If you look safe and you are safe, like you're representing the belay program

00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,760
super well where an athlete like they can see you or a parent can see you and

00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,760
see, oh, they're making sure my athlete doesn't fall to the ground.

00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,760
Like, yes, that is the baseline.

00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,760
But after that, it's okay.

00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,760
They're providing soft catches or safe catches for every athlete.

00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,760
And then when it gets to that tie in point, it's like, hopefully there's enough

00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,760
situation or just like integrity in that situation that this climber can now

00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,760
know, okay, they've seen me belay without me having to say anything.

00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:38,760
They've seen me belay.

00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:46,760
Hopefully they have enough like, they have enough ability to then perform as

00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:52,760
hard as possible on like a 5'14 climb that they're about to get on.

00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,760
Please excuse this brief intermission, but I've gotten a few requests for this.

00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,760
So I just wanted to announce that if you're interested in helping support the

00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,760
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00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,760
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Back to the show.

00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,760
Quick logistical question that came to mind.

00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,760
You guys don't wear those like belay glasses?

00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,760
Is that like an aesthetic thing or like wouldn't it help with, I don't know,

00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,760
your neck or something like that?

00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,760
That's a great question.

00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,760
So we prefer not to use belay glasses.

00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,760
A lot of that has to do with like when we're working on a field where there's

00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,760
more than one climb, which is every field that's not, or every round that's

00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,760
not finals.

00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,760
Like seeing the field of play or having as big of field of vision as possible

00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,760
is so helpful.

00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,760
Like when I'm looking at a climber and I'm using belay glasses, I only see like

00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,760
three quarters of their body.

00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,760
Rather than if I'm not using belay glasses, I see their whole body and then,

00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,760
or for the most part, like I'll see them climbing.

00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,760
And then I can also see if there's a route that's like three draws next to me,

00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,760
I can see where that climber is, where they're moving.

00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,760
If they're like being caught and their body is coming towards me, like I can

00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:42,760
move out of the way.

00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:47,760
When you have belay glasses, you are restricting not only the vision that you

00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,760
have on the climber, but you also restrict the vision right in front of you and

00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,760
kind of to the sides.

00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,760
So I mean, what we'll mitigate with that is just we do belay stretches.

00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:58,760
Oh really?

00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,760
Oh actually.

00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,760
Yeah, not like super formalized, but like before and after every round, like

00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,760
make sure that you're working your neck that, because oftentimes you're just

00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,760
staring straight up.

00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:17,760
Yeah, there's little things like sometimes I'll turn my body so I look to them

00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,760
sideways, so I'm not like using just direct neck on that.

00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,760
So there are ways to minimize the pain that you'll have.

00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:34,760
I had some pretty serious pain for the collegiate nationals qualifying round was

00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,760
like, it was a long, long, long round.

00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,760
It was close, it was maybe more than 100 catches per person.

00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:49,760
I'm not, I can't remember exactly, but like it was staring up and it was vert

00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,760
instead of overhang, which like gives you a little bit of like respite on your

00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:54,760
neck.

00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,760
But yeah, it was just vert for hours.

00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,760
It was like, I think nine to four or five or something.

00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,760
I don't remember exactly, but it was a lot of looking up.

00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,760
But yeah, stretches are so good.

00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,760
Stretches feel great.

00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,760
Yeah, I might need to get some stretches from you because I like had a neck

00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:19,760
injury and then it kind of like came back again and just like looking up is

00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:20,760
kind of hard.

00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,760
So I noticed that when I was doing like a little bit of belaying and then I was

00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,760
like, I don't know how people do this for any longer than a session.

00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,760
I will say belay glasses are not, like I don't hate them.

00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,760
I do think they're helpful, especially if someone's projecting, but in a

00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,760
competition, I don't use them.

00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,760
But yeah, hopefully your neck feels better.

00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,760
Well, I'll send you some stretches.

00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,760
Yeah, yeah, thanks.

00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,760
But okay, good to know.

00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,760
I just, I had to know.

00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,760
Okay.

00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:58,760
And so what are some of the differences between belaying for, I guess, like

00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:04,760
different categories of climbers, like youths versus I guess like elite

00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,760
climbers versus para climbers?

00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,760
Yeah, I'll start with youths.

00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:15,760
A lot of it is like there's a lot of categories.

00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:22,760
So on the regional scene, I think it goes all the way to D categories.

00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,760
So there's D, C, B, A, and junior.

00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,760
So there's five age categories and then there's two gender categories.

00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,760
So there's 10 categories that we belay for.

00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:41,760
With lead climbing, if you're using an assisted braking device, which a lot of

00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:48,760
the gyms near me are assisted braking device mandated, catches are really,

00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,760
really finicky because you're using an assisted braking device.

00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,760
There's often a weight difference between you as a belayer and the athlete

00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:57,760
you're belaying for.

00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:04,760
So like the weight difference between me and the average youths,

00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,760
the climber is great.

00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,760
I will weigh a lot more than them.

00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,760
And using an assisted braking device is more often, like if I don't jump or I

00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:20,760
don't modulate my gravity for that climber, they're going to have a lot of

00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,760
forces enacted on them.

00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,760
And that could be forces back into the wall just through the rope itself.

00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:32,760
So what I often will do in the youth scene is if it's an assisted braking

00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:37,760
device mandated gym, it's like I will use a specific device or I just will jump

00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:38,760
a lot.

00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:45,760
So there's a lot of technique that you'll need to provide really safe catches

00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,760
for the youth series.

00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,760
When using an assisted braking or when using an ATC or an immunobreaking device,

00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,760
you can use friction in the system rather than like jumping.

00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,760
So oftentimes you'll see on an elite side is we won't leave the ground.

00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,760
Like that's one of our big goals is we'll stay on the ground and we'll modify

00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:10,760
the friction so that the climber is being slowed down rather than being spiked

00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:11,760
into the wall.

00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,760
And it doesn't look too different on the elite scene because there is a lot of

00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,760
difference in climbers' physique.

00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:23,760
Not to go too in-depth with that, but like you could have very similar

00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,760
parameters in terms of which category you're going for.

00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,760
The skill will be different for like an NACS or a National American Cup Series

00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:33,760
event.

00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:39,760
You'll have a lot of different skill levels represented for Open Nationals or

00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,760
Yeti or Elite National Championships.

00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:49,760
You'll see a little bit more tenured climbers.

00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:55,760
And then for national team trials, you'll have the best of the best.

00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:01,760
And then going into Paraclimbing, which I find to be the like those are my

00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,760
favorite events to belay for.

00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:04,760
It's the best.

00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,760
It's such a good climbing scene because of just like, I don't know, diversity of

00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,760
physical ability and just diversity of people there.

00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:21,760
National team trials, like so the last National Team Trials, the National

00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,760
Paraclimbing Championships was also at the same time, like just the week after.

00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,760
Similar thing happened last year at Mesa River in Austin.

00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,760
You'll see like National Team Trials and then the Paraclimb National

00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:35,760
Championships.

00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:41,760
The scene shifts right as the Paraclimbing event begins and it's just so

00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:50,760
like beautiful and fun and loving and like, yeah, so such good energy.

00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:57,760
National Team Trials is great and fun and like it's fun energy in terms of

00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:58,760
like it's a comp.

00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,760
But it's a little bit stuck up because it's like, yeah, it's the best of the

00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:07,760
best. These are people that have like made this their career and not that

00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,760
Paraclimbers haven't, but the people that are represented in Paraclimbing is

00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,760
like, I don't know, people that are in love with the sport to the point that

00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:23,760
they're here to connect with people of similar like they're all, yeah, we're

00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,760
all just like represented very well by just really hardworking athletes.

00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,760
So I think Paraclimbing is so much fun.

00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:37,760
And then playing for those events is there's a lot of care that's needed.

00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,760
A lot of the people that will sign up for the Paraclimbing Ballet Teams,

00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,760
you'll see both people that have very little competition experience that just

00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,760
love the scene and then you'll have people that love, like have a lot of

00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,760
Paraclimbing experience and also just love the scene.

00:56:53,760 --> 00:57:00,760
So it's, yeah. So there's a lot to factor into that because there are a lot of

00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:09,760
categories for Para. I believe there's off the top of my head, there's like I

00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:15,760
think 11, 10 or 11 categories and then gender categories added to that.

00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,760
So there's a lot of classifications.

00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Yeah. Do you have to like belay differently for each type of classification,

00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:33,760
like blind versus RP versus like amputee categories?

00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,760
Possibly. Yeah. There's parts of it that you'll have to like have different

00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,760
ways that you catch.

00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,760
The feedback that we've received from previous events is E-Category climbers

00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:52,760
prefer not to have like a super soft and like graceful fall.

00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,760
They would rather just be caught so they can feel that the rope is catching them

00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:02,760
rather than like for a lot of the catches that we perform, they are somewhat

00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,760
senseless of like you're just kind of coming into a cloud of softness.

00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,760
B-Category climbers don't necessarily love that, which we try our hardest to

00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,760
advocate for them to give them like not a terrifying experience.

00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,760
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:23,760
Yeah. So B-Category will look a lot different in terms of like the timing of

00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:29,760
how they will come out and for yeah, one of the big differences for seated

00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:36,760
climbers for the seated category of athletes that don't have the like control

00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,760
of their lower extremities, they climb so fast.

00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:47,760
They're campus climbing. So we have two belayers per position.

00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,760
After those are going to tandem belays, but you'll have a very similar

00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:57,760
belay to a speed climber or like back in the day before autobelays, they would

00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:02,760
have two belayers, one on the top side of the ATC or belay device and one on the

00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,760
bottom brake side.

00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,760
I never even thought about that.

00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,760
Yeah, to pull that rope through. Well, we didn't think about that like my first

00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,760
Paraclimbing World Cup that I worked.

00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:20,760
I was belaying and I was belaying this athlete who is amazing.

00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,760
He crushed, he camped us the whole route.

00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,760
I was the only belayer.

00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,760
I was PBussing because PBussing is the standard that we use.

00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,760
As fast as physically possible and I could not keep up with his speed.

00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,760
It was after that that we're like, okay, optically this looks terrible because

00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,760
the rope is like there's so much slack in the system.

00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,760
The head belayer for the event, my friend Ty, just pulled on the top side.

00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,760
I pulled on the brake side very quickly and then I went into just the standard

00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,760
taking out slack.

00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:53,760
That's where we then corrected.

00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:58,760
That's like, okay, for seated climbers, we need, if it's a tandem belay, we need

00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,760
four belayers for this one athlete.

01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,760
That's what we do now, which I think is very great.

01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:12,760
I would say those are the two extremes that we see of this category needs this

01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,760
and this category needs this.

01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:20,760
Seated climbers, they climb very fast, which is so fun to watch, but also

01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,760
sometimes I would say that's probably been the most stressful moments for me in

01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:31,760
belaying is just not being able to keep up with an insanely strong seated climber.

01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:32,760
Yeah.

01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:37,760
I guess the tandem belaying process, do you want to go into how that works?

01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:39,760
Yeah.

01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:45,760
Something that's implemented into pair climbing for overhung routes is a tandem

01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:46,760
belay.

01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:54,760
The purpose of that is it is a cumbersome belay technique for the climber because

01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,760
there's more ropes than you want.

01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,760
If you were to imagine severely overhung route, which some of these athletes are

01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,760
climbing in an indoor space, if you had just an anchor point at the top of the

01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,760
wall and they were to fall low down on that overhang, they're going to hit the

01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,760
mat very hard.

01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,760
Just in terms of just the physics of it, if it's just a straight circle arc,

01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,760
they're coming back to the ground.

01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,760
With a tandem belay, there's a redirect low down.

01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:30,760
There's two top ropes, one at the very top of the wall, one about a third or

01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:37,760
halfway up the wall that will redirect the catch process.

01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:43,760
As the climber is low down, that first or lower belayer, we call that the primary

01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:50,760
belayer, will be the first one to catch, say that climber falls down low.

01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:58,760
Then as they climb above that lower top rope point, then the secondary belayer,

01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,760
which is on the very top of the wall, will start taking over in terms of then

01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:04,760
performing the catch.

01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:10,760
You'll see the primary belayer getting out slack as the climber goes up.

01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:17,760
Then the whole entire time, the secondary belayer is taking all the slack out.

01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:24,760
The reason for that is not to make a very challenging system for the climbers,

01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:30,760
but to give them the ability to climb something that's very overhung without

01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:32,760
the risk of safety.

01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:37,760
Tandem belays are not ideal, but they do give a lot different terrain for the

01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:39,760
athletes to climb.

01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,760
Yeah, that was really interesting.

01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,760
Makes sense that there's a lot of differences that pop up for

01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,760
paragliding, so that was good to know.

01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,760
Okay, I think those are all the logistical questions I had.

01:02:53,760 --> 01:03:01,760
I want to go into some maybe more story-based questions or questions about

01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,760
how you are actually feeling while you're belaying.

01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:13,760
Do you ever feel nervous or pressure when you're belaying, if you're ever

01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,760
worried that you'd somehow mess something up, or is it just so second

01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,760
nature that that's just never even occurred to you?

01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,760
It has definitely occurred to me.

01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,760
I will say it doesn't happen often.

01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:33,760
I think when I first started, there is stressors from what you'll see,

01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:38,760
because qualification rounds almost are never broadcast, and then semi-finals

01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,760
and finals are broadcast.

01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,760
Different rounds have different levels of stress for me sometimes.

01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:52,760
When I'm belaying for a qualifier round, everyone is watching in the

01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,760
facility, no one else is watching externally.

01:03:55,760 --> 01:04:00,760
I think I get a lot of fear in the qualification round, because that's

01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,760
what's setting the example for the rest of the event.

01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:09,760
We're belaying well for this event, this is how we do it, but starting with

01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:10,760
that first climber.

01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,760
It's always the first climber has a little bit of, do I remember how to do

01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:15,760
this?

01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:20,760
Which I do, I do remember how to do this oftentimes.

01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:27,760
I don't know if this is a universal feeling, but the more times that I've

01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,760
done it, I have a lot less stress or fear.

01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:36,760
I can get nervous, I can get a little bit scared, but overall, I can go to

01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,760
any route on any round and be like, oh, I can belay this.

01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:47,760
I have enough glossary of catch things, or people that I've caught in my

01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,760
memory that I'm able to say, this is what I did, this is what I did, or

01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,760
this is how I modulate.

01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,760
Just friction for this style of climber or this style of catch.

01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,760
At this point, no.

01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,760
My first Nationals event, yes.

01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:08,760
I remember there were four routes, and for Nationals teams, you usually have

01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,760
two routes per, or two belayers per route, so you'll have a team of eight.

01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:17,760
We had a team of four, and it was my first Nationals event, and there was, I

01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:23,760
think there was like 60 climbers per gender category about on average.

01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:30,760
My first Nationals event, I'm belaying 60 times in a row, and I can't get

01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:36,760
critique or anything really from any belayer elsewhere because they're

01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,760
actively belaying the routes, and it just was going through it real fast.

01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,760
That whole qualification round was nerve-racking because I was still

01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:49,760
trying to showcase, yeah, I have ability, but also a lot of people are

01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,760
watching, and then semifinals round.

01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:58,760
Semifinals round, it's on YouTube, and you can just see how janky I look.

01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:06,760
I was still perfecting my abilities, but yeah, it was the National American

01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,760
Cup Series stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:16,760
I was new to the scene, and there was still a lot of belay techniques that

01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:24,760
were not written down or implemented super well or just made into a glossary.

01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,760
So it just was like, we didn't know how to describe like, okay, he isn't

01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,760
doing this, this, and this.

01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:35,760
It was just like, okay, he's new to the scene, he looks janky.

01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:40,760
So I over time built my technique.

01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:44,760
Yeah, that first event, super nervous.

01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:52,760
Did you watch back to see yourself belaying on the video?

01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:59,760
I have because at a climbing gym that I worked at, we would put just like

01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,760
climbing videos on, and sometimes they would just be like USA climbing videos.

01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:04,760
Oh, sure, yeah.

01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:05,760
Oh, there I am.

01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:06,760
Oh, dang it.

01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,760
Like, I was there, I remember that.

01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,760
And also sometimes it is helpful to look back at previous catches of like, I

01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,760
know what went well, like I know what I could have done differently, or like,

01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,760
this one is great, I actually really liked this catch.

01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:20,760
Yeah.

01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:21,760
Okay.

01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,760
So that's the only reason why is like, you can still perform a lot of analysis

01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,760
of like, this is what went well, this was, what did it go well?

01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:33,760
And sometimes I will watch climbing video, or like, I will watch events for

01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,760
the belaying more so than the climbers.

01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:41,760
I just like, wow, this, this federation has a lot of good skill, or this

01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,760
federation needs some work.

01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:49,760
What's something as viewers we should like watch when it comes to belayers?

01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:55,760
To watch, I think the catch, like, you can make catches look really good and

01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:56,760
really safe.

01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:01,760
And if you're like, just one of the cool things is like, if you do a catch

01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,760
super well and they run out on an overhang, usually they'll swing, but if

01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,760
they don't swing, like, that's good on the belayer to take into account like

01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:12,760
the physics of everything.

01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:16,760
And then you'll just see them like, oh, they went into space and they're down

01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,760
on the ground very safely and they show to stop.

01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:24,760
So for like the average viewer, it's, I don't know, maybe, yeah, what I look

01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,760
for is just like safety.

01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,760
Making sure that they're not like being slammed into the wall.

01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,760
But if they're giving like soft catches, I think it's great.

01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,760
Another thing for the YouTube comments to complain about if they notice a

01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,760
hard catch, I guess.

01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:41,760
Yeah.

01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:49,760
So you mentioned previously when you, like before the competitors come out,

01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:52,760
you say the same thing to them every time.

01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:58,760
Are there ever any competitors who are like nervous and they want to like talk

01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:03,760
before they climb or are most of them just like in the zone and trying to keep

01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:04,760
focused?

01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:06,760
It depends.

01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:12,760
One of the first nationals event that I did in New Mexico during the finals

01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,760
round, my friend Steve was there too.

01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,760
We were sitting down, we were in ISO, we were sitting down, or the climber was

01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:20,760
sitting down.

01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,760
I was in the system like with my belay stuff.

01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,760
And the climber just said, who are you?

01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,760
I was like, I'm Noah.

01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,760
And she's like, where do you live?

01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,760
Like Colorado Springs.

01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:34,760
She's like, okay.

01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:36,760
And then my friend Steve was like, he is good.

01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:37,760
You can trust him.

01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:38,760
I was like, okay, cool.

01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,760
But it just was a funny like question that I didn't know how to answer.

01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,760
Like I actually don't really know what I'm doing here.

01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:47,760
Like I'm just belaying.

01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,760
It's a valid question though, especially if you're on the national scene.

01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:54,760
You're like, who would, I have not seen this guy before.

01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:55,760
Oh, okay.

01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,760
Like they were familiar with the other belayers.

01:09:58,760 --> 01:09:59,760
Oh, I see.

01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:00,760
Okay.

01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:01,760
Yes, they were.

01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:02,760
They were not familiar with me.

01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,760
Yeah, to go back to the question.

01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:10,760
Yeah, you'll see some nervousness.

01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:16,760
If it's someone that's familiar, like I'll go through the whole spiel of you're not like,

01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:17,760
sorry, your harness looks good.

01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,760
The whole like quick buddy check logistics thing.

01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:26,760
But if they talk, like I'll try to keep talking to a minimum, but I can tell like, oh, they're just nervous.

01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:28,760
And they're trying to like communicate about the route.

01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:36,760
Like you'll see that on the scene a lot with different categories, like nervousness is real, especially if you are a child.

01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,760
So I don't want to, I don't want to take that away from them by just ignoring them.

01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,760
So I'll just, I'll engage partially in small talk.

01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:49,760
I don't have any other than that one conversation with that one climber during finals.

01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:51,760
I don't really have much that I, that I will hear.

01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:58,760
Sometimes like people will be, or climbers will be snarky and be like, hi, I'm Noah. I'll belay you today.

01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,760
And they'll say, hi, I'm so and so, and I'll climb for you today.

01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:03,760
I think that's funny.

01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:06,760
I think that's funny every single time.

01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:07,760
Yeah.

01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,760
Other than that, not conversations, pretty minimal.

01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,760
Okay. Other stories.

01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,760
Are there any bad falls that you've seen?

01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:30,760
I think in the discord, someone had posted like a video once from a lead Japan cup where an athlete's shoe got clipped into a clip and she got stuck there.

01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,760
I, yeah, I did see that on the discord.

01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:45,760
I've experienced something similar, actually, not necessarily someone's shoe, but during a round of the youth world championships in Dallas.

01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:55,760
There was a climber that was climbing up and just the position of the quick draw and just the movement of the climbers leg,

01:11:55,760 --> 01:12:15,760
they snared their leg. So like they were dangling just from like the rope being wrapped around their leg and I was belaying actively and like I had slack in the system and I was trying to just like demonstrate to like the audience that saw me like, Hey, I not holding this climber up.

01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:19,760
It's the leg. That's their leg that's snared on the rope itself.

01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:28,760
I didn't understand the language. So I couldn't communicate anything. We like we're trying to get setters like setters, please, please help.

01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,760
And then the coach went out into the field to play, which in the moment is great.

01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,760
Like the coach went out to the field of play described what to do to the athlete.

01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:50,760
The athlete went in direct to their harness and then I provided slack. They un-sneared their leg. They went or they un-clipped the draw from their harness and then I caught them.

01:12:50,760 --> 01:13:04,760
That was a weird moment where it just was like, I will stay on belay. I'm not going to detach from the system, but I'm just standing here waiting for whatever to happen.

01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:10,760
But yeah, that would that would be one of the like more surprising moments that I've had.

01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:12,760
Is there like video of that anywhere?

01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:20,760
There is. Yeah, I think it's a it's a live stream or like a finals feed for or semi finals feed for Youth World Championships.

01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:28,760
But yeah, I felt bad for the climber. I was just like, yeah, you're out of Youth World and then your leg gets snared.

01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:35,760
But it happened again that season, which was interesting to another climber in Edinburgh, I think.

01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,760
Okay, I'll try to find the videos.

01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:42,760
Yeah, so those are things that have happened or like that's an experience that I've had.

01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:48,760
Other than that, like thankfully you won't see people deck.

01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:54,760
Like I personally haven't seen it. I've seen people what we will sometimes call soft deck.

01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,760
Like there is padding on the floor for a reason, which is very helpful.

01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:08,760
But there are some some situations and some like physics equations where there's only that's all that can happen.

01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:18,760
I know I got some hate comments on a reel that we posted on the belay, the USA belay of like a climber was above first draw like decently.

01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:25,760
And then like touched the ground and you could tell that they weren't injured.

01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:27,760
Like I still assisted the catch.

01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:34,760
But the way that the rope was or the way that I was positioned and the climber was positioned was like I was in the corner of the wall.

01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:39,760
I couldn't take out slack like super fast.

01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:46,760
But the climber just like their their body was on the ground or like their legs touched the ground.

01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,760
But they like I still partially caught their fall.

01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:54,760
So that's often what you'll see.

01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:59,760
Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't see that happen too often.

01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:01,760
Not to say that it hasn't happened.

01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,760
I think belay or I mean climbing is inherently dangerous.

01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:09,760
You'll always see just risk involved.

01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:17,760
But in my personal experience, I haven't seen much in terms of like anyone being severely injured.

01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,760
Thankfully, I'm very grateful for that.

01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,760
But at any point, it still could happen.

01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:29,760
What do you do when it's like before the second clip and it's like a little bit dangerous?

01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:34,760
Like how do you mitigate the risk there?

01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:41,760
It's just a sense of always knowing like if I could catch someone at that moment.

01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,760
So between one and two is always just like you're locked in.

01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:50,760
You're so locked in to just like no matter what catch I want to keep them like either.

01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:55,760
I want to bring them softly to the ground or I just want to like make sure they're not touching the ground.

01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,760
So thinking of OK, what is am I going to run back?

01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,760
What is my escape plan? How do I how do I get out of the way of the climber?

01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,760
Because oftentimes like the rope will be close to their legs.

01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:13,760
We want to make sure that we're not flossing a climber or like giving them severe rope burn.

01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:22,760
So oftentimes it's like we want to be out of the way if they're at the first draw and they're clipped in the first shot going to second.

01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:28,760
They're often in a situation where it might be safer for them to come to the ground and like similar to a boulder fall

01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:37,760
rather than like on on the competition scene we don't spot because we would rather one injured person rather than two.

01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:42,760
And it's it's easier for us to follow that if we don't spot the climber.

01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:48,760
So that that's something you'll see between one and two is just it's just control.

01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:55,760
It's just knowing the knowing your route that you're believing of like OK, this is the physics of what could happen.

01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:01,760
And this is what I can do is like an escape plan or just like a catch plan.

01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,760
So that's that's what goes through my mind.

01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:10,760
And then after two is just like, OK, cool, just make your clips and you'll you'll be fine.

01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:15,760
Good to know. How do you I guess get selected for like an international event?

01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:19,760
The only person that has really done it for USA Climbing is Ty Hardaway.

01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:26,760
He was on the the ballet team for for the World Championships in Berne.

01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:36,760
So he is yeah, he is like the he was the national ballet coordinator for USA Climbing until like just this last week or so.

01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:38,760
It's now turned to Toby Monroe.

01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:50,760
But Ty Hardaway is like the pioneer for a lot of a lot of just documentation, but also coordination of a lot of the nation's belayers.

01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:57,760
And then, yeah, he worked an event in in Berne, which is very cool.

01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:59,760
And then he's hopefully going to do some work.

01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:12,760
It has he's now working towards developing a international program for for all of the federations to kind of align to similar standards.

01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:19,760
We've seen a lot of success in in USA Climbing's belay program to the point where IFSC is considering.

01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:33,760
Yeah, let's try to implement similar like like how we are represented by multiple regions. The International Federation of Sport Climbing is represented by multiple federations.

01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:37,760
So how do we how can we kind of align both of those values?

01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:41,760
Ty is doing a really good job with spearheading that.

01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:49,760
So we'll see a lot of we'll hopefully see a lot more of him internationally. He is.

01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:56,760
Yeah, it's exciting to see just because he has a lot of a lot of history and a lot of background.

01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:05,760
Like he's he's one of the people that really brought me up in USA Climbing to this point where it's like, OK, cool.

01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:12,760
He's now working internationally and developing what is called World Belay instead of USA Belay.

01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:17,760
It's like it's an international thing.

01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,760
Yeah, with the priorities of skills, ethics and culture.

01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:31,760
So he would be a cool person to also talk to in terms of he has full scoop of the history, but also just the development of the program.

01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,760
Yeah, Ty is super cool. So shout out to him.

01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,760
I know he's going to listen to this. So. Oh, nice.

01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:49,760
OK, well, so to get onto like the international scene, is it also just a sign of genius or is there like a is there a full process for that?

01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:54,760
Or is it just like you got to know the right people? I think for it depends per federation.

01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,760
I think it's more who you know or just like the experience that you've had.

01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:09,760
So it's similar, maybe not as structured as USA Climbing of just like, oh, we've had this person that's belayed for this like local event.

01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,760
We can endorse them to maybe work this event.

01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,760
So, yeah, he worked burn.

01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:28,760
I think it was just like a USA Climbing IFC like job or just like a development thing for belay because he also he was the.

01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:35,760
I think he was the head belayer for the Para World Championship.

01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:43,760
Or, yeah, he conducted the he co head belayed and he conducted a belay clinic for the Paraclimbing World Championship in burn.

01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:54,760
So that's why he was there was to develop the Paraclimbing scene, which is also really cool because now there's more possibility of it being in the Olympics for L.A.

01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,760
2028, which is so exciting and so incredible.

01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,760
So, yeah, I don't know.

01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:04,760
I don't know what other region other federations have.

01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:14,760
I think it's more just like you have tenure or you have ability from this federation that we find you able enough.

01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,760
And there's possibility that it might be sign up genius.

01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:19,760
Awesome.

01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:21,760
Well, I think those are the questions I had.

01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:25,760
So we'll get into some of the discord questions.

01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:26,760
First one.

01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:38,760
What are some common bad practices that you have to point out and make people stop doing when they're belaying most common bad practice that I see is poor break hand technique.

01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:48,760
So I work towards the industry standard of using P bus, which means if you're unfamiliar, pull, break under and slide.

01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:55,760
And the reason for that is at any point you have a fixed point as you're sliding your hand.

01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:57,760
So it adds redundancy to the system.

01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:10,760
You'll see people and I sometimes I'm not the best at this, but we'll call it slip, slap, slop in our area versus like a quick like you'll bring your break hand up and then you'll like.

01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:19,760
Hook your pinky finger around the rope and then you'll slide it back down. It's a very old school Alpine belay.

01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,760
You'll see that and then

01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,760
another.

01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:42,760
Yeah, so you'll see I see a lot of poor break hand control. A lot of people have been using the term tunneling, which is very specific to using a Grigri. I personally don't like it because I don't find it very redundant or safe.

01:22:42,760 --> 01:23:00,760
So I personally use P bus for anything and then people will use tunneling for using an ATC at any point that you are tunneling your hand up and someone were to fall. There's a lot less ability for you to use friction on that hand to then stop the climber and you'll probably

01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,760
give yourself severe rope burn.

01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:12,760
It's tunneling just when you like let out slack and you're just, I don't I don't even know how to describe it.

01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:13,760
What is tunneling.

01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:30,760
So the term I've heard the term came from a hard as easy video of like this belay technique, but it's like you have you take out the rope so you're using both your guide hand and your break hand and you're going into a like you're pulling slack out of the system position.

01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:39,760
And then instead of taking your, your non dominant or your guide hand and bringing it under and then sliding your break hand up. You just slide your break hand up.

01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:46,760
Oh, I don't find very safe because, like I said, at any point that someone were to fall in that instance.

01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:58,760
If a Grigri were to fail for whatever reason, like you, there's possibility that someone could deck from that so that's something that I see a lot, I don't love.

01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:07,760
So, just P buses industry standard, it is a little bit slower but it is the safest technique that I use.

01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:17,760
So I will usually take, I will usually correct people on that if, if they have poor break hand usage, and then

01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:35,760
Yeah, for for catching people won't put two hands on the lowering side which I have recently chain transitioned into doing and said I was just like, he sloppy and have one hand on the break side but putting both hands on the break side as safe as you catch someone

01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:39,760
is the safest way to do it so that's another thing.

01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:50,760
And then, yeah, just like position of yourself versus the climber some people will stand right under a climber climbing and if they were to fall they would fall on top of you.

01:24:50,760 --> 01:25:01,760
Sometimes, like it's things that you, you won't initially think about but then when you like think about, oh, they were to fall right now, oh, they would be right on top of me I'm going to move over this way so body position is huge.

01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:13,760
So, given these practices, do you feel like you're more cautious when you're the climber, and you like care a lot about who your belayer is.

01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:15,760
I think so.

01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:20,760
I would love to see someone belay before you let them blame me.

01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:38,760
Just because I want to see like, okay, how safe does their belay look, which also then feeds back into the athletes perspective, like, I think my ability is very similar, not climbing ability but like my ability to recognize like good belay technique is similar to other climbers.

01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:53,760
So, if I see someone that has sloppy XYZ, I'll say like, I'm hesitant to climb bolt one, two and three but after that I feel okay with you catching me like on the whip or something.

01:25:53,760 --> 01:26:11,760
Yeah, there, there'll be some that I'll say like, I can tell that they'll short rope me, or I can tell that like they're hesitant. So it gives me hesitancy of performing super well so similar to athletes it's like the belayers ability affects my ability to climb.

01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:24,760
So, I, yeah, and like I've done a lot of gym lead tests before, and I know what to look for of like, okay, we'll do this quick exercise of like take out slack give out slack, great that looks fine.

01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,760
Oh, you're belay certified, cool.

01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:33,760
But yeah, if it's someone that I've never seen before I definitely take a little bit more caution of.

01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:42,760
I don't know who you are but if it's one of my if it's one of my belay friends, oh I will, I will climb. I will whip off the first draw and feel okay.

01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,760
Okay, I know they have me.

01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:57,760
So, yes, I will say I'm cautious to the standard gym goer but like for anyone that's on the competition belay circuit I'm like, oh this is fine, like I will have a good ride anyway. Does that answer the question?

01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:06,760
Okay, next one. Have you ever had to remove like a volunteer belayer after seeing that they did something wrong.

01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:18,760
Yeah, especially in the head belayer role it's like, if you see bad belay technique, like that's why we have the pillars of consistency safety and safety consistency and professionalism.

01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:29,760
At any point that I'm like, this person is talking way too much climbers like, the climber doesn't need to have like a full on conversation about this.

01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:39,760
Like I'll pull, I'll either correct them, like hopefully we have a conversation before you were pulled, but if it's a safety issue.

01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:57,760
Yeah, I will pull that belayer from the round and what we'll often say is like, at any point, you could be relieved from the round. If that happens you're welcome to come and like talk to us after the round has happened so it's not like taking away from the, from the field of play or just like the integrity of the field of play.

01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:25,760
So there, I think it was my first time I head belayed, which was a qualifying event near where I live. There was a very poor belayer who had just learned how to lead belay and used it very poorly that both short roped multiple kids and then unfortunately like the climber, there was one climber that hit that made contact with the ground.

01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:33,760
From like the second or third bolt and it was bad and I was like, okay, great. Immediately like this is no for me.

01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:54,760
We'll talk after the round and like, like I said, we hopefully will have ability to give correction but if it's something like that it's just an immediate pull so yes we will. I will not let someone that has hurt somebody or has been close to hurting somebody stand around because I want to keep the integrity of the belayer team that's currently there and then also just for the field of play.

01:28:54,760 --> 01:29:08,760
So yes, that is a that is a tool we use to better people and also sometimes pulling then adds to the conversation of this is how we can work towards better belay technique.

01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:24,760
I don't want to, I don't want people to leave a belay round not knowing any better. I want them to hopefully learn from their mistake so that they can provide a better experience for belayers.

01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:42,760
Like I think everyone can with the work with providing work or with putting work in they're able to belay really well. It just takes practice experience to then get to that point rather than like I don't, yeah, I don't think everyone's a lost cause.

01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:48,760
I think there is always room for growth and I try to communicate that to people that I pulled as well.

01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:58,760
And there have been some people that I've been close to pulling or that have made a lot of correction. I'm like, wow, you've really improved over the last season like I can tell you put in work and that's, that's always very good.

01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:09,760
I do really like that. And so with the short roping, I guess, does it ever happen to a point where people submit.

01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:14,760
Oh my god, what's it called? Appeals. Yeah, appeals for it.

01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:37,760
I have not experienced it in my career for belaying. I know that it can happen and usually it's happened. It happens in the moment where a climber on the wall will say short like short rope or like something along the lines or they can come down from a route and talk to a judge or a head judging official and say I've been short roped.

01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:52,760
I personally haven't seen it in my experience, but I know, I know there's one time my friend was wrongfully called for short rope because the climber was actually stepping on the rope, which they didn't know.

01:30:52,760 --> 01:31:09,760
So they were calling, they were pulling for rope and they couldn't pull anymore and they called for short rope and the belayer down there was just like, I have slack in the system, not calling out to the climber, but just showing like, we'll show with like a soft J like, hey, there is slack in the system.

01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,760
You could pull this if you weren't stuck.

01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:32,760
So it can happen. I haven't experienced it. And if from my friends experience it, it can happen, but it can be wrongfully called. So short roping at the skill that we have now, you often won't see even on the regional or divisional scene.

01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:43,760
Okay, last question. Thoughts on the double Fisherman's or Yosemite Tuck. Are they used in comp climbing? Doesn't matter. Some gyms seem to take it very seriously.

01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:55,760
Yeah, for USA climbing within the rules, like you have to tie a figure eight follow through, through both of your hard points with a safety knot at the end.

01:31:55,760 --> 01:32:10,760
The reason for the safety knot is just to both denote that there's more than enough tail. Like if there's not enough tail, there's possibility it could untie itself. If there's a safety knot or stopper knot, that means that there is enough tail and it also won't go back through the system.

01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:30,760
It could be anywhere from an overhand knot, which is just a standard knot, a double Fisherman's, which is kind of like a barrel knot on the working side and then a Yosemite finish or Yosemite tuck is using that tail and then tucking it back through the figurine itself.

01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:47,760
There are ways that you can tie it incorrectly and there are ways you can tie it correctly. Visually, it's a lot harder for us, like in a quick check to see a Yosemite finish correctly done rather than a figure eight follow through with a stopper knot.

01:32:47,760 --> 01:33:00,760
If I was recreationally climbing, I personally will use a Yosemite finish because I can untie it pretty well, but I often will just tie a regular figure eight with a little stopper.

01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:10,760
But for competitions, you have to have a figure eight with a stopper and you'll see it on all elite athletes that they have that on their knot.

01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:19,760
And if they don't, I question that. But yeah, more times than not, you'll see every athlete figure eight follow through.

01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:26,760
Just because it's easy to see. It is harder to break, but it's the easiest knot to do a check on real quick.

01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:35,760
Okay, makes sense. Cool. I think those are all the questions I had. Any closing thoughts?

01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:46,760
Maybe this is a closing thought. What I was talking about in terms of like, canyoneering and rappelling being kind of applicable to belaying,

01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:56,760
the technique that you use for dynamic rope control almost directly as related to rappelling because you're using the friction of your hand to lower yourself down.

01:33:56,760 --> 01:34:01,760
At a certain speed, you're able to give yourself a consistent lower of yourself down.

01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:10,760
So you're kind of doing that on the floor when you're using dynamic rope control to stay on the floor instead of being like lifted up or jumping up.

01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:16,760
You kind of have the same rappel technique. So that's, I don't know if that's something that can be fished in there,

01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:24,760
but like that's the reason why I brought up rappelling or canyoneering is like those skills are actually really helpful to use.

01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:33,760
Like just using the friction of your hands, lowering yourself down, like you're, yeah, to visually represent it.

01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:37,760
It's like you're kind of lowering yourself down actively as you're catching the climber,

01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:42,760
but you're staying on the ground the whole time and the climber is just coming down in a soft, safe manner.

01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:53,760
Awesome. Well, thank you for joining me today. Is there anything else you want to shout out or if you want to let people know where they can find you, if they have any further questions?

01:34:53,760 --> 01:35:00,760
Yeah, just like shout outs to the people that have really impacted my belay career.

01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:09,760
Definitely want to give thanks to Ty Hardaway who has now taken over the IFSC belay program in terms of the development.

01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:17,760
Steve Baker, who is the uncle Steve to all of us. And then yeah, other people part of the team.

01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:25,760
Toby Monroe, C-Lad, they're all people like you'll see on the belay team. We're all a family.

01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:31,760
Like we care a lot about not only belaying, but we care a lot about just humanity and people.

01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:38,760
So there are people that have really impacted me on my journey, not only like just belaying, but just personally.

01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:50,760
Yeah, you can find, I mean, I don't post much, but I have Instagram and I post a lot about like little belaying things on Noah underscore Kiwi,

01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:58,760
which is just a little ditty on my last name, which is Maka'iwi. Kiwi just is a little bit easier to pronounce.

01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:08,760
And then yeah, follow USA belay if you want to see just ways to get involved. Feel free to like message USA belay.

01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:15,760
We just put a little divisional post out of all the divisional championships that took photos of their belay teams.

01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:26,760
So I think that's really sweet to just see like the belay teams that are represented like throughout all nine divisions of USA climbing.

01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:38,760
Like, oh, they're humans on the other side and they're all like working towards this really cool project of serving athletes through safety, consistency and professionalism to better,

01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:44,760
not only the sport, like as it's gaining a lot of traction for the Olympics this year, 2028 Olympics.

01:36:44,760 --> 01:36:52,760
But it's like, yeah, these are not only parents of athletes, but just like people that are super into belaying like myself.

01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:59,760
Yeah, we're just a little bit. It's just a fun crew of individuals that come together.

01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:09,760
So USA belay is a very fun way to interact. We also have a belayers page on USA climbing in ways if people want to get more in depth or want to learn more.

01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:19,760
Yeah, the community, the belayer section on the community page of USA climbing is where you find a lot of curriculum that we've developed for the public use.

01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:22,760
So those are those are aspects I can show.

01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:29,760
Yeah, I will link all of those below. But yeah, thank you again. It was amazing to talk to you.

01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:31,760
Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:40,760
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big climber.

01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:51,760
If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description.

01:37:51,760 --> 01:38:14,760
Thanks again for listening.