30: Tom Greenall, Team GB’s ex-head coach

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unbeknownst to me, I actually violated international immigration law at the time.

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And I was like, wow, well, Jim is like an international level athlete with years of

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conditioning and training behind him and you're just going to like pick up his training week from

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a video and then do that and think that's the right thing for you. I was like, oh, this person's going

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to be injured real quick. The scrutiny on myself and the other coaches was so much that it was

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almost unbearable at times. I've had athletes been like coming into international events where

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my coach says that I'm not to warm up with you because you don't know what you're doing and

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things like that. Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your

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host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest, Tom Greenall. Tom is Team GB's ex head coach who

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personally coached Shana Koxy into getting her Tokyo Olympic ticket and of course has worked with

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the rest of Team GB up until he left the national team earlier this year in April. In this episode,

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we'll learn about why he's banned from the USA, the strategy for getting Shana to qualify for the

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Olympics and the politics and public backlash he faced working in the circuit that led to his

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eventual resignation. Tom was kind enough to re-record this interview for the second time

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because we lost the footage from the first one. So please send him some love and I hope you enjoy

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this episode. You've also been like quite busy the past few months. So what have you been up to?

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I got back into kind of coaching again. I've been busy kind of like, you know,

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working with some different athletes as well. And then I got a part-time role like coach education.

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So working with like a branch of the federation, they're slightly separate looking on like

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developing the coach training that we do in the UK. So then I was like prepping that, delivering that

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and actually I just had a knee surgery as well actually. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, how did that go?

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Yeah, it actually went really well. Yeah, so that's kind of like kept me busy but in like an

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interesting way. Like I guess just prioritizing the rehab around working and then just trying

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to make everything fit around that. It's just been a bit more tricky. And then actually me

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and my girlfriend just got, we just got a new dog as well. Oh nice. Yeah, so it's just been busy.

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Like a puppy or something, some dog from the shelter? Yeah, she's not yet. We got her from

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a rescue. She's not a puppy but she's quite young. But yeah, she had like a difficult start in life.

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So it's nice to be able to give her a good home. Yeah, I got that. I'm actually fostering kittens

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right now. So I've got two kittens hanging around somewhere. I don't know, they're pretty

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independent already I guess at this point. Was the knee issue something that you've been dealing with

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and like putting off until your time or was it like a recent issue? So I guess I tore the cartilage

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while I was climbing in Greece in the October of last year. And then I think it was Christmas

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time where I was out running with my dad where like the thing just tore really badly.

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And so I was in this two minds about whether or not I should go

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private or obviously in the UK we have the National Health Service. And so I kind of wanted to see how

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bad it felt after a few months and it sort of got better to a point and then it just stopped getting

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better. So actually by which time I was in like the National Health Service system and they thought

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because of my occupation, my age, they could get it done a bit quicker. But still from the point of

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injury to having the surgery done that was still eight months. So I was kind of doing what I could

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around that issue for that period of time. But with a cartilage tear of that nature only a surgeon

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is going to sort it for you. So it was the only option really for me.

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Yeah, I mean I've heard like a little bit about the NHS versus like private stuff. But yeah, I

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don't know too much about that. It's different in the US.

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Yeah, I guess you know on the positive it makes health care so much more accessible for the vast

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majority of people and there's never an issue where, you know, for example, like my ex-wife

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actually she had a heart attack when she was like 20, 25. Yeah, and so the experience that we had,

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you know, I think with the NHS, I think when it's more kind of like orthopedic low level things,

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it's not, it can appear really slow and clunky. But if you actually ever need anything major,

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the service is incredible. And if we were in the States, like that would have been thousands and

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thousands of pounds like the care and the procedure. And we just weren't set up at the time to,

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you know, be able to fund that kind of thing. And so actually when you're in a position like that,

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you just think how incredible the service it really is. But I think if you're like

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waiting for an orthopedic surgery like I have with my knee, like, and you're like, oh my God,

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I've got to wait six months to have this thing done. Yeah, or sometimes even longer, it seems quite

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slow. But actually, I think if you really need the service, it's really good. I feel very lucky

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to be resident of the UK with that. Yeah, I honestly don't really know how it works here.

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I don't have a job right now. So I have like disaster coverage, I think. And hopefully no

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disasters will happen. But yeah, I'm glad that that's all been working out for you. So I guess

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just getting started so that we can get to know you a bit better. When did you start climbing?

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And you also sort of like competed yourself a bit, right? Yeah, so I got into climbing,

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really through my dad. So I grew up in part of the UK called North Wales, which is really famous for

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its traditional climbing. And for those of you who've maybe seen it, it's where a British

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male called Emma Twyford climbed the first 9a by a British woman. So like that area, if anyone's

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familiar with that, that's North Wales. Yeah, and I grew up climbing there with my dad, all disciplines

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really. And then we would travel to Fon as well, from like a really young age. So he, I guess in a

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way, he really gave me like a really broad experience and appreciation for the sport.

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And we'd travel a lot in the UK climbing. And so I spent quite a lot of time on the grit stone edges

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of the Peak District as well, when I was younger. And then that then led me to university, where I

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did my degree and I started getting into climbing a lot more seriously then. So I was probably like,

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well, 18 at that point. And then from that, yes, like I fell in with a group of high level climbers,

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did some competitions at like national level there, but nothing beyond that. And that's probably

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between, yeah, that's like a long time ago, like 2005, six to like 2007. A long time ago.

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Yeah, you didn't want to continue with like the competition process.

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I think at that time for me, like the competition scene was fairly small, I would say, like in the

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UK really. And I think to me, the interest was really like an outdoor climbing, because that's

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where I've kind of come from at that time. The love for competitions really came through coaching

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for me much later. And that's really where I found, I suppose the most gratifying element of it

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for me was through the coaching side, whereas personal climbing, I always kind of preferred

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outdoor rock and adventures outside.

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Okay, so then getting into coaching, how did you start? How did you get your start there?

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Yeah, it's actually maybe like at the time years ago, it was a less clear pathway, I would say,

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than maybe it is today. So I came to Sheffield to do my undergraduate degree in sports coaching.

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Actually, at the time, I kind of got a really good spectrum of coaching in other sports.

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Because I guess even at that time, you know, like we're talking like early thousands, right,

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that the scene was very much instructing, I suppose, and there wasn't much coaching going

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on in terms of regular contact and helping people develop with training and developing skills.

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So realistically, I kind of chose at that time to sort of focus more on other sports,

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and I had other jobs before this. And then I'm guessing at some point, maybe about 2010,

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maybe, I sort of started to appreciate from this experience that I had elsewhere that

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there was these big gaps when it came to my home federations work around coaching.

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And so I sort of started working at the local climbing gym, where I was teaching kids

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classes and things like that. And then maybe just sort of through putting myself out there a bit

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and having conversations about, you know, we could do better with this kind of stuff,

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I got the opportunity to start working with the national team, like the junior national team at

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that point. And then that kind of led me into international sort of, you know, coaching,

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taking the youth team abroad. And then that kind of like rolled up and rolled up, I guess,

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until I guess I probably became like a full time professional coach in climbing, I guess,

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probably around about, I guess, like that 2015, 2016 mark. So then that's when I was, yeah,

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a full time professional. And then I continue working with the GB team working privately with

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a squad that I ran from Sheffield, which actually included quite a lot of GBA athletes,

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at that point. And then I briefly moved over to your side of the Atlantic to coach in Houston,

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of all places, really briefly, and then back to the UK from, you know, kind of 2019 onwards.

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Yeah, why did you decide to do a brief stint in the US?

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Yes, at the time, I actually, yeah, at the time, I kind of, I was kind of,

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I felt like I'd kind of reached a bit of a point of not feeling the challenge or the stretch maybe

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within the coaching that I was doing at home. And I kind of felt like I was one of the more

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experienced coaches nationally, and I wanted to kind of broad my experience a little bit.

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And so I got an opportunity to come to the US to work with a gym and kind of like start squad

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and start to, I guess, get a bit of a different feel for it in a different country. And so I

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wanted to take that opportunity. But, you know, tragic sad story is actually had major visa issues

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because the attorney who's advising the immigration process didn't file some of the paperwork in time.

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So true story, unbeknownst to me, I actually violated international immigration law at the time.

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And actually, I'm now currently suspended from coming to the US at all, which is very, very

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strange. Yeah, yeah. So I've never been to the Salt Lake City World Cup, for example, because I

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could never travel there. Oh, my God, I had no idea about that. Oh, that's such a shame.

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Well, when does it when does it like end? So it's supposed to be a lifetime ban. But the truth is,

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I think after after 10 years, you can normally apply for a petition. But I will never be able

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to travel on an ESTA. So I'll always have to come in on a different type of visa. Oh, my gosh.

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So yeah, if anyone is thinking, listeners thinking like, I'd like to go to the US to do some coaching,

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then make sure you check all the check all the boxes on the immigration. Oh, my gosh, that's crazy.

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Did you have to like, go to court or anything like that? No, no, didn't go to court. But I mean, I'd

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sold all of my, you know, all my stuff, you know, shipped all my stuff over, signed the lease on the

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apartment in Houston was actually like living there. And then returned to the UK over Christmas

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to see family, and then went to the the embassy in London and actually had like the written

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approval for the visa, but then failed to pass the last bit, which was the interview. So had the had

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the visa rejected in London immediately, and was then told I could never travel to the US. And so

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like, all my stuff was in Houston at this point. So I just called up some friends and was like,

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Oh, my god, this has happened. And they let me stay with them for a bit. And that was like the

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Christmas of 2018. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Wow, what an experience that is. Well, that's a shame that

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you'll never get to visit here. I feel like we have some stuff to offer. But I guess you'll be

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you'll be fine in the UK as well. So you mentioned that you felt like back at the time, there wasn't

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a very straightforward way to get into coaching. Do you think it's a more straightforward process

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now? Or like, if anyone's listening and are interested in getting into coaching, like what

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should they do? I mean, I guess like at the time, it just wasn't really something that was maybe

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taught about that much or accepted that was happening. And so I guess there was maybe less

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of a demand for it. So I would say now, there's probably more, you know, squads, or the appetite

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for coaching is more broadly accepted now. So I think you can set yourself up independently more

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easily now and probably get business. I think you can also probably through a climbing gym,

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as well be able to access, you know, coaching like grassroots coaching, and then you can

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access, you know, coaching like grassroots level more easily. And now there is a lot more of a

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developed like competition structure in the UK. It's not as developed as it is in the US. But I

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think that that's like another example of how, you know, in the US, most climbing gyms will have a

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team or big gyms will have a team. And I think so you can normally find your way in that way. So it

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is more developed, I think, because it's more widely accepted. And, you know, I don't know about

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the US, but in the UK, like we have a, like a coaching like award scheme, so you can start to

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train and implement your skills, and you can progress that way. As well as obviously, just,

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you know, through experience as well set yourself up. So I think there's more opportunity now. And,

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you know, we're talking, well, you know, since I started my coaching, you know, coaching degree

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almost 20 years later. So it's a lot's changed in that time. And there's this little thing called

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Olympics that's happened. And that's really obviously changed quite a lot, because it's put

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climbing on the radar of more people. And so, yeah, I think we can expect more growth for sure

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in the next few years. So I mean, surely, you know, a lot of like the other national coaches,

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do a lot of them have certain like degrees or certifications? Or is it just kind of,

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they just, I don't know, got into coaching? I think there's probably a bit of a mix, really.

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I certainly think there's, you know, quite a few

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federations will employ like, like former athletes, as well, because when it comes to

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arena based experience, very few can really appreciate what that's like. But an ex athlete

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can do a really good job of that. So often, that's a really good way that you can sort of,

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as you finish your athletic career, move into coaching. I mean, I can think about some of my

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friends and colleagues as well in Austria, like Killian Fischhuber and Kassel Salvein, for example.

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You know, they're the two main coaches, I suppose, for Austria, obviously, incredibly respected

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and well decorated internationally in their own right as athletes. So that can be a route.

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Or I suppose you could have coaches like, I guess, like myself, who are more kind of like

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academically and came up through the youth system. So I think there's probably a few different ways

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that it looks, but it might, it might depend on your own country's sort of processing system for

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how it works. For them, you know, like the French national team have like a really big team with

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lots of different coaches in, you have some previous athletes, obviously, in Nico Jamuel,

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but also people like Cecile Abzu, but then you have other coaches as well who didn't compete.

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So it's like a, it's like a good mix. And I think it's, it's a real sort of mystique that you don't

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have to be or have been a fantastic competitor or pro climber to be a good coach. But there are

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aspects that I think you can appreciate more if you have been in those things and you can learn

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those skills too. Do you feel like there's anything that you got from your, I guess, like degree that

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kind of sets you apart from other coaches in particular? I think it's, yeah, interesting. So

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I have, I have my degree, then I went, I went back later to do my master's degree and I actually

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found my master's degree more informative. And I can't tell whether that was because at the time,

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my own personal experience of coaching was greater. So I could make sense of what they

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were teaching us. But I think what it did do is it just opened my, my eyes to this idea of like

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forming your coaching practice to call it that. So, you know, I think rather than kind of just

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sort of haphazardly wandering through this, you know, finding out what works and doesn't work,

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what it did is it gave me this idea of these are skills that you need to shape your own way of

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doing things, like a craft, you know. So if you were like a painter, you could just go and paint,

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you know, and just like trial and error it and this is, this is what I do. But then I suppose if

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you went and spent time at some different schools and you met a lot of different artists who kind of

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helped you learn a little bit about why their style was their style, you can take a little bit

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of the experience from all of these people and then inform your practice. So expanding knowledge

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through those things was definitely really helpful for me. And I really try and glean as much as I

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can from most of the coaches I work with. I think often like almost like academically

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having some of that stuff in the background helps you develop skills where you can be quite

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critical. And I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean critical like in a, I suppose in like a

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positive way that you can read a new piece of research that comes out and you can appraise it

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to decide that the strengths or weaknesses of it, you know, you don't swallow every bit of information

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that comes out from climbing and say, oh, this is the new thing. You know, I see a lot of coaches who,

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you know, they're in the gym and they're doing activity and like I'm sure they've seen that on

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Instagram. You know, I'm following trends or as I think as a coach, you've got a much more deeper

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knowledge, understanding and you can critically look at something and think, all right, well,

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I see that but I can see the strengths of it, the weaknesses of it. Where does it sit for me? Does

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this sit with my practice? So I'd say that's like a big difference, I would say. So what's like an

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Instagram trend you've seen in terms of coaching that you would never employ? I've never employed.

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I think most things, if I'm going to be diplomatic, most things have their place. It's just where and

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when. But I think what I've noticed recently is that I think there's a lot of information out there

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that makes us believe that the science behind climbing training is really complicated but there

00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:57,520
are coaches or companies that can make it really simple for you. I think the truth is that the

00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:04,480
science behind climbing training is really quite simple but the application is actually quite

00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,640
complicated. In terms of like doing it well, putting it into that person's life and getting

00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,320
it right, that's hard to do well. But the science that underpins it is really basic, really.

00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,560
Do you have an example of that?

00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:25,520
I guess a good example is if we go back like, I don't know, 10 years or so, a lot of the research

00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:31,040
that was really coming out around climbing training was around the number of moves you need to do in

00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:37,600
the week. And it was very volume driven around you need to be working at this and to boost your

00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,800
endurance, you're doing all these thousands of moves and this kind of thing. And I think it

00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:49,040
really then led to the application of quite general sports science terminology. So like we

00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,440
have this thing called, and correct me if I start to lose you as I chat loads of like

00:20:54,240 --> 00:21:01,040
sciencey like, basically like energy systems over time. Yeah. And this is stuff that people learn

00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:06,560
at like A level. A level is like college level, like PE in this country, you know, about like

00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:12,640
you're in like your ATPPC system, that's anaerobic. And then you move through to your

00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,080
glycolytic system, that's anaerobic too. And then you get to the aerobic system, which is obviously

00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:25,360
oxygen fueled. And I think they've become this explosion of, I'd hear people down the gym

00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,160
thinking like I'm working on like my anaerobic power or my aerobic power and all these terms.

00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:37,600
And actually, you know, those principles had all been underpinned with research extrapolated from

00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:44,960
sports where the types of muscle contractions or the movements were essentially not the same as

00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:50,640
climbing. And so it was like a bit of a leap. And that's what happens in research. Like you

00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,520
have to extrapolate, find a starting point. But in the more modern realm, when we know a bit more

00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:02,160
about it, it's been clearly proven that those ways of operating just not as relevant. Nowadays,

00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:12,080
what's the like, what's the thing to do to increase your aerobic capacity? Yeah, yeah. So I think

00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,160
coming back to your question, you like Instagram trends, right? You're like, yeah, yeah. You're

00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:22,880
like, what's what's the trend that you wouldn't follow? And it's mainly I think, people think

00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,520
that they need to train, most recreational climbers, at least nowadays, need to think they

00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,280
need to train like an elite athlete to get the goals that they want. And that's not true.

00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,800
I think also to become an elite athlete.

00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,680
I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess at some point, yeah, you've got to start doing that. But there is just

00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:45,120
so much like, I think information out there now. And I mean, I was actually talking to somebody

00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:49,600
the day in the wall, and they were like, I'm doing this training. And I was like, okay, like, where

00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,280
did you get that training from? They're like, I watched this, there's an online YouTube channel

00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:59,200
called Wedge. I'll plug Wedge because Sam Lawson is a friend. And they followed Jim for like,

00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,920
Jim Pope for a week of his training. And they're like, I'm just gonna do what Jim does. And it's

00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,880
like, wow, well, Jim is like an international level athlete with years of conditioning and

00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,680
training behind him. And you're just gonna like, pick up his training week from a video and then

00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,160
do that and think that's the right thing for you. It's like, oh, this person's gonna be injured.

00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:26,080
Real quick. Yeah, I guess that happens. But I don't know what else are you to do as just a

00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,160
random climber who's watching YouTube videos. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's what you know,

00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,920
we said before about being critical, you know, being able to sift through that stuff, because

00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:43,680
there's almost so much information out there. Now it's hard, you know, someone like, you know,

00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,720
yourself, you've got your goals. Like, how do you find your way through this, like, this world of

00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,400
just stuff is like jumping out left, right and center about do this, this is the best thing,

00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:58,160
this revolutionize your training, you know, it's hard to pick apart what's good and what's not

00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:05,120
appropriate for you. And so that's when really, my dad summed it up really well, really. Someone

00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:10,640
asked him, like, Oh, your son, your son's a coach, like, what does that really mean? And my dad said,

00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,200
it means he spent his career doing all the reading so that you don't have to. And I was like, Oh,

00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:21,360
it kind of makes that kind of makes sense. Okay, so the answer is, if you can afford it,

00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:27,520
get a coach for yourself. I mean, I think so. But I mean, I obviously would say I really enjoy but

00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:34,160
not everybody needs a coach, right? I think a lot of people can make great improvements, like,

00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,400
a lot I know people who are very fascinated at reading and they're very critical themselves by

00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,960
nature and enjoy that process of trialing it for themselves and they know themselves very well,

00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,840
and that's great. Maybe those people don't need coaches. And I think also a lot of people don't

00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,040
necessarily want to train per se, they just want to go and enjoy climbing. But I genuinely believe

00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,800
if you want to get good, quicker, having somebody in your corner to support you with that journey

00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,400
to be that, you know, kind of like critical person that kind of helps you organize and structure

00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,480
it that person who can say back down, right? When you're like, I just one more try, and they're

00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,200
like, okay, no, because we're going too far over that line. That's really good. But then also

00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:18,480
having somebody to say, come on, get off your ass, Jenny, we need to go, we need to do this. If you

00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:24,880
want that goal, you know, I hear that too often. That's also part of it. All right. Okay. So yeah,

00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:33,360
that's kind of your background. Working with like the GB youth team, and then making it up the way

00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:41,520
to head coach. So I just want to get a bit into, I guess, the people you've coached on the GB team,

00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,920
I think there are a lot of stars out there that people are kind of interested in and would be

00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,480
happy to know that you were part of their like climbing journey. So first up, we've got a lot of

00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:59,280
Shauna fans, you coached her up to her Olympic qualifications. So I'm sure people would be really

00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:05,120
interested in hearing what all went into that. Please excuse this brief intermission. But if

00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:11,120
you're interested in an entire bonus episode with Tom that I had to scrap due to technical difficulties,

00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:17,200
as well as deleted scenes, do consider helping support this podcast on Patreon. Some other perks

00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,640
include a membership pin shipped to you after two months, prioritize guest questions or the ability

00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,640
to submit video questions, and much more to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast, and then

00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:34,400
podcast help me break even and they help improve the experience of the guests. If you'd like to

00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:40,560
help out non monetarily, liking, commenting and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the

00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,920
show. Yeah, well, I've known Shauna for a while, you know, she lived in Sheffield with me and we'd

00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,840
see each other in the climbing wall. And at the time, I was working with a lot of other, you know,

00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:56,080
GB athletes. And so I think she'd, she'd kind of like parted ways maybe with her previous coach.

00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:03,360
But she still had this, you know, this dream of going to the Olympic Games. And so she was

00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:07,040
already working with Leah Crane as well at the time, who was kind of supporting her with like

00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,560
technical training. But I think there was kind of like a need, I think, to kind of unpick the

00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:19,040
Olympic, like the goal a little bit. And so I remember going to her house for dinner and for a

00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:26,400
potty and she was just like, I'd like you to, you know, come and help me try and do this. And so

00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:32,160
realistically, the first job that I had within that team was to think, right, what's it going to

00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:38,400
take to qualify for the Olympic Games? And like, how do we actually break that down into something

00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,960
that's manageable? And then how do we kind of try and fit the training around trying to achieve

00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:49,920
that? And so realistically, that was my job back in the autumn of 2018, all the way through until

00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,360
her qualification. So it was really about, I suppose, with those two of us coaching, me and

00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:02,000
Leah. So Leah would handle a lot of the kind of like technical stuff, like in the wall, like

00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,600
focusing on movement and the way that those two had a relationship around movement discussion,

00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,920
which is phenomenal. And my job was really to support them both by having this big plan of this

00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,160
Olympics. This is the targets. This is what we're going to try and prioritise. We're going to try

00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,360
and make a dent here and we're not going to worry too much about this. Yeah. So that was really

00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:26,960
cool experience because at the time it was like, I'd worked with other GB internationals, but

00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,080
obviously Shawna is an incredibly highly decorated former two-time World Cup winner,

00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:38,800
overall World Cup winner. So that was like a real kind of like, wow, let's go and step it up a bit.

00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,360
And I'm really grateful to her and the people I worked with there for the time that I spent

00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,960
with them. It was great fun. So I guess your role was more of like,

00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:54,640
rather than like physical training coaching, it was more like big picture kind of coaching.

00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,960
I suppose like a bit of a link between the two. So I suppose like I would write the training and

00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,280
I would be in the gym with Leah and me and Leah would jointly implement it. So I guess some of

00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:12,080
the stuff around, if we were trying to like chase improvements physically, I would do more of that.

00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,200
If we were trying to chase improvements technically, Leah would do more of that. So it was kind of like

00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,560
a bit of a balance between the two of us. And yeah, but my job was to create the plan,

00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:30,320
to answer this question, like how do we get to the Olympics? And credit to Shawna as well,

00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:36,480
like she's such a phenomenal athlete. She has one of the most incredible elite mindsets out there.

00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,080
And, you know, she was able to like, I think exceed even our projections of where she could be

00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,880
to qualify in the Hatchioji World Champs. Yeah. And I mean, that was definitely like a weird

00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,760
Olympics to try and qualify for because of the combined, the super, super combined format.

00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,400
So what was the strategy for that? Yeah, I mean, the strategy was, you know,

00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:04,640
quite a simple one, was obviously with the three disciplines, you can't really look to be at a super

00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:10,800
high level across all three because there's such different physiological and technical demands.

00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:16,480
And we saw during that period of time, lots of athletes having injury problems because trying

00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,800
to train all three, the volume attached to that is just enormous. And particularly when you're

00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,960
trying to straddle such different, you know, earlier we talked about energy systems, but,

00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:31,920
you know, outputs, it's really complicated. So what we realized really quickly, Leah and I,

00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:39,040
is that Shona's capacity in more strength or power-based disciplines is her super strength.

00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:45,600
And so it really emerged that speed was going to be the key speed embolder. And looking at that

00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,880
system, when it was a multiplication of ranking, we actually had a model where we would check in

00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,520
a little bit about where do we need to roughly be in terms of ranking in each of these different

00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:02,080
things. And we had an objective, which was kind of like the nine second mark, because as a combined

00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,600
Shona's capacity for getting a reasonably competitive speed time, not against the speed

00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:13,040
specialists, but against the other lead embolder athletes was really quite good. And so she'd run,

00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,480
I think she was running like between 15 and 12 seconds in training. Remember, we have this

00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,800
discussion, like we want to get this down to like nine seconds or as close to nine seconds as

00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:28,400
possible, and then she will be competitive. So we're like, we have to do that. And we need to

00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,840
maintain boulder because boulder is the other thing that can deliver like a one or two ranking.

00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:41,760
So that was the emphasis. And we just did enough of lead to kind of tick that over. We didn't really,

00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,240
really prioritize that in a big way, because it was difficult to, you know, handle the volume of

00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:54,400
all of that. And then it was, you know, we got to Hachioji, there's a lot of pressure on the

00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:01,360
Japanese athletes and, you know, Shona produced two PBs back to back of nine two, I think, and

00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:11,680
nine one to beat Miho Nanaka and Futaba to get an incredibly high ranking in speed. And then she

00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,560
absolutely killed it in the boulder. And so, and in fact, in the qualifiers for that, but you know,

00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,400
she did incredibly well on the lead. But when it came to actually the final, I remember sitting

00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,120
there thinking, Shona only needs to mathematically climb halfway up this lead wall. She's already in

00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,400
that position to qualify now because of speed and because of boulder. So the strategy really

00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,760
paid off really. But hey, I'm not taking credit for that. She did the hard work. She deserves all

00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,760
the credit. It was phenomenal performance. Sure. Yeah. I mean, in terms of, so like in terms of

00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:48,080
speed coaching, I feel like that's quite a different, I don't know, I feel like it's pretty

00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,920
different from like lead and boulder coaching, maybe. And going from like 15 seconds to nine

00:32:53,920 --> 00:33:00,240
seconds is kind of difficult when you're like, trying to shave off those like, like, once you

00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,840
get faster and faster, it gets harder to make improvements there. So did you do any speed

00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:14,720
coaching or did you like find another speed coach? So actually, Leah did a lot of it, which was

00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:22,240
really super cool. And I guess it just came, it became, you know, we went to a wall in the UK that

00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,000
has a speed wall and they were really good. And they just, we went there, we drove from Sheffield

00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:32,400
like two and a half hours every week to go and train there a lot. And actually we did go abroad

00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:39,520
for a speed training camp and we met with a speed specialist coach who gave us a lot of information

00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,320
about that. So actually, you know, the Ukrainian athlete, Daniel Baldura. So we spent some time

00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,640
with Daniel and he gave us a lot of insights around doing stuff for training, but also things like

00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,240
actually on the wall. But, you know, we went to work so much and Leah really and Shauna, they

00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,800
created like a, like a sequence that worked for Shauna and we could get the, you know, the

00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:06,080
repetitions in. And she started to consistently get, you know, get quicker. But really the magic

00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,240
of what happened at Hatchoogy is, is Shauna's competitive mindset. She just made that decision

00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:15,760
of I'm going to, I'm going to do this now. And, you know, it was a phenomenal performance from her.

00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,920
Yeah. So I guess going into present day, I mean, you're no longer the head coach, but you're still

00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:28,720
obviously pretty involved and had brought up the team a bunch. Definitely this year, it seemed

00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:34,720
like Team GB had found some kind of like special form, maybe all of the hard work that you had put

00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:40,000
in the years before it was paying off. But do you feel like there was anything in particular that

00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,400
like in terms of training you guys changed or specifically worked on in training or coaching

00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,960
that you feel like made this like special difference this year? I don't think so. And as well,

00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,880
you know, we have a very interesting set up in the UK as well. And most of the time the athletes

00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,000
are like in their home environments, like they have often different coaches at home. And then

00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:10,480
they kind of come into the GB setup where, you know, we're working together. I think the UK is

00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:16,560
really interesting because we're very stubborn as a nation. And I think that one of the biggest

00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:23,360
strengths really is that a lot of our athletes are very hungry and they really want to kind of

00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,440
go out there and show what they can do. And so I think that realistically, and I'm sure that even

00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:35,040
there must be a good stat for this, like in terms of how much power of investment like GB does

00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:42,800
incredibly well. And I think that that success really comes from having a very determined and

00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:49,600
very, how to describe it, like hungry group of athletes who are really, you know, pushing to get

00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,560
those opportunities. And it's pretty competitive as well, you know. So I'm sure the same is true

00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,680
as well, you know, with like Japan, for example, if you look at them as a nation, it's how do they

00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,800
continually bring through generation upon generation of top climbers. And it's like, well,

00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,400
there's a lot of people climbing, it's very competitive to get into that Japanese team and

00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,400
you've got to fight really hard to do it. So I think that is a real key aspect of what makes

00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,040
Great Britain a good nation. I think we've got some good home coaches who are doing good stuff in

00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:27,520
the walls. But I think as well, we have a very like experienced team of coaches that do go out for

00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,320
the international stuff who are able to take care of all the logistics and all the arena support

00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:39,040
to give those athletes the best chance, you know, to, you know, to deliver and where athletes

00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:45,360
want to as well, we obviously support directly with coaching. So in particular, you know, Liam

00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,800
Britton coaching directly with Toby or Rachel Carr coaching directly with Erin McNeese, you know,

00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,600
those coaches are almost like embedded within that athletes team as well. So they bring their

00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,960
knowledge to that as well. I think that, you know, is a really cool thing, because then the person

00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,960
that you're working with in the week is also that person who's there with you at the international.

00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:11,040
So I think that was really significant in supporting both Erin and Toby to great performances

00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,040
at the games.

00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:19,040
I guess when you were head coach before, before they had like really had their like huge breakout

00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:25,040
seasons, did you feel like you saw something different within them that made them stand out?

00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:33,920
I think that they have all got an incredible mindset. And I think that they have all got an

00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,280
incredible mindset. And I think that they're very different, those two athletes as well, they bring

00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:46,960
very different strengths to the table. You know, Toby has an enormous capacity to absorb training.

00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,960
And he's incredibly, you know, motivated and focused. And I think then the work he does with

00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,800
his dad as well, you know, they're very detail orientated, they almost like take no, take no

00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,600
but are very open as well to new ideas and principles. And I think all of that is kind of

00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,080
part of the, you know, part of it as well, you know, take on board all the information that you

00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,480
can learn, listen to others, but be really clear about what you want to do, be very focused.

00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:21,200
That's really clear. And I'd say that also is true, Erin as well. You know, being very focused and

00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,600
very dedicated. I mean, it was really obvious. And I remember us sitting down to have a meeting

00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,360
before Erin's preseason, really talking about, you know, we really need to train hard this year,

00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:38,080
we really need to level up. And, and sort of, you know, me kind of encouraging the coaches being

00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:44,320
like, push, push her, you know, she wants to be pushed, let's, let's, let's, you know, up the ante

00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:50,240
a little bit. And then Erin also has the capacity to go and do that. So that's, you know, been

00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:54,480
wonderful to see. But also, you know, other athletes as well, like obviously Molly and

00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,280
Hamish McArthur as well, you know, getting the games opportunity. Like I think GB was what, like

00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,840
one of maybe two or three nations to have full quota at the Olympic Games. Like that's a

00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,760
phenomenal stat. I'd actually think overall, two men in the final and one woman in the final. Like

00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,920
I'm sure if there was a medal for team, I think GB won that. So that's, that's a phenomenal

00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,840
achievement and credit to them. Yeah. It was like a crazy Olympics for team GB.

00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,440
Do you, what are some of the differences that you've seen between coaching

00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,800
individuals versus working as the head coach for like the entire GB team?

00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,800
Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely different. And I'm sure that the other head coaches out

00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,800
there will appreciate this too, is there's a bit more of kind of almost like strategically managing

00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:45,200
the thing. So, you know, kind of setting up the season plan, how you might work that strategically,

00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,360
how that sits with budgets, like where do you send the team, where and when, that kind of thing.

00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,160
That's definitely more a part of it. But I think to me, at least in my experience, while I was

00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,840
head coaching at GB, one of the biggest differences was learning for me to let go a little bit of the

00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:09,440
direct input with the athletes and mentoring a coaching team to do that, which freed me up to

00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:15,120
almost have more of like a, like a quarterback style role where I was sat a bit further back

00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:22,480
from the action kind of coordinating them. And that was really rewarding, actually. Not to say

00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,320
that I didn't still have the opportunity to do plenty of frontline coaching, which I did.

00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,640
But that main difference was this idea of like building a team of coaches, of mentoring them,

00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:40,160
of finding what their strengths were, and kind of fielding them in complementary roles together and

00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:45,120
yeah, supporting them as individuals and making that a cohesive unit. That was like a big thing.

00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,240
So I would say in the short term, it was leadership. That's the main difference, I think.

00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:54,880
I think being a coach is one thing when you're kind of doing the technical stuff, but being a head

00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,160
coach is about leadership. And that's definitely a different thing.

00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:04,480
Okay. So can we go into a bit like what the nitty gritty training process is kind of like,

00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:10,720
especially when the whole team is together, like during team trainings or like whenever it's like,

00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:13,360
what's it called? Like,

00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,360
we have like a camp or something.

00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,000
Yeah, like a training camp or something like that. Like what kind of what goes on there?

00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Yeah, I suppose so. It kind of looked a bit different over different points in time,

00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,880
different years. But I suppose the main thing in the UK that we really emphasized was

00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,400
what I'd call like time on task training. So, you know, a lot of the climbers can go and they can do

00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,240
their circuits and they can do their weight sessions, stuff like that, like independently.

00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600
But having, you know, because we don't have a national training center now in the UK.

00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,360
We did have one for a period of time, but it was really difficult to kind of get the holds and

00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,280
stuff in there that we needed. So what we'd really do is we would work very closely with our national

00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:01,600
headsetter and we would look for, we do a lot of analysis around like trends and styles of boulders

00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,360
and difficulties of boulders and that kind of thing. And so normally when we'd come together as

00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,960
a team, the biggest area that we could add value was by having a specific setting done

00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:18,640
that would match the requirements of the team. So we would go, at every international, we would

00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,280
catalog all of the boulders, for example. You know, and what we would do is we would look at

00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,560
different stylistic themes and then we'd be able to kind of track them in terms of finding out

00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,360
like which are the styles of boulders that we as a team find difficult male team, female team,

00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:39,280
individuals. And so when we came together as a team, we could really then enhance the experience

00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,760
of learning on them. So during pre-season in particular, it wouldn't always be comp simulation,

00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,680
like sometimes it would just be sessioning on the boulders together as a team, learning from your

00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,960
teammates. Really kind of like finding where the gaps are, you know what I mean? So my idea was

00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,000
always a team, an athlete would come into a team training, they would climb on the boulders, they

00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,200
would get feedback from others as coaches, and then they could go back to their home environment

00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,960
more informed about maybe the work-ons that they needed to do at that particular point in time.

00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,840
And then when they'd come back from another to another training, they would be able to come back

00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,480
in and say, okay, I've been working on this. Like, let's see if it's making a difference.

00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,600
And then as we'd get close towards the season, we would start to simulate maybe aspects of the

00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:28,720
performance environment, because in all honesty, there is no way you can replicate competition.

00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,960
Competition is competition, the consequence and everything else that you can't really truly

00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:38,880
replicate it, but you can mimic some of the demands of it to have a session dressed up

00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,440
like a competition so people can see how they're doing in terms of their processes and their

00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,440
practices and keeping them sharp. Because you really have to hit the ground running now, you

00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:53,440
know, at World Cups, you can't take four or five to get into it. And in particular, as we were

00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,080
running in towards the Paris Games, obviously the athletes who are going to go and do OQS and

00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,280
things, there are a totally different timetable to the other athletes that are going to do the

00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:07,600
World Cup series. So it was really how do we get them as sharp as possible to go to, I think it

00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,600
was the China World Cups were the first ones, and then on to the OQS. And then we had the

00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,440
first ones and then on to the OQS. So yeah, so I guess in summary, a lot of time on task training

00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:24,880
around movement specific stuff, and then leading into simulation and replicating the demands of an

00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:25,920
arena situation.

00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:34,160
Yeah, so you mentioned there's a big difference between simulation and the actual thing. Do you

00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,640
ever see athletes who are able to perform well in simulation and then somehow they just like

00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:47,520
crumble given like the, I guess like the pressure of the real situation and like the crowd and

00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:48,160
everything like that?

00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:54,640
Undoubtedly, there's a trait of the really top athletes where they, and actually we talked

00:44:54,640 --> 00:45:02,080
earlier, you know, Shauna is one of those. Shauna's capacity to go up a gear in competition

00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:10,560
versus training is one of the key hallmarks of her as an athlete. And I think actually

00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,600
Toby is another, but the difference is that Toby's standard in training is so high.

00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:22,080
Like for Toby, a competition is reasonably easy in terms of the complexity of the boulders and

00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,880
the routes that he gets. You know, so that's a very different way of looking at it. But for sure,

00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:33,120
I've seen it over my career definitely when in the pre-season running up, we've done multiple

00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,920
simulations and there's an athlete or two who were winning those, you know, they're winning

00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,160
training and then we've gone to internationals and they've not been the ones top of the roster for

00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,400
GB at that time. So it is definitely a thing.

00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,880
Okay. And so you would say Shauna was kind of the opposite where maybe like the competition

00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:51,760
pressure was helpful.

00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,040
Yeah, I think Shauna, how to phrase it, Shauna knows how to win. She knows how to win.

00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:04,800
And she can, she can action that, which is great. And I think that you can see it now that Toby is

00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,920
learning how to do that because his, you know, it's a really interesting thing, isn't it? Like

00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,920
some people describe luck and I don't really believe in luck per se. And I think a really

00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,920
good example of this was for those who, you know, your listeners, you should go and watch the

00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,320
Yanya unfiltered, like little mini documentary series.

00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,000
Because she talks often, doesn't she? Particularly around her cycle. And she said something like 70%

00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:38,560
of the medals that she won, she won while on her period. And so when there's lots of factors

00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,240
influencing whether or not that person can give their best on a particular moment, whether

00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:48,960
Ashley is capable of winning that frequently, they're not lucky every week. They have found a

00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:54,000
way to levy their skills and abilities and irrespective of the environment, whether you're

00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:01,120
in Korea or China or the US or Europe, they can apply that process to deliver the performance

00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:07,360
consistently. That's not luck, that's you've figured out how to win. And I think that's a

00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:13,520
really interesting aspect of performance at the very end, which, you know, I guess like,

00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,400
you know, if you climb outside and so I was like, oh, do you really climb 13B? And it's like,

00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:23,360
yeah, because I can climb 13B on any rock type in multiple different conditions almost any time.

00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:29,040
Like that is somebody who truly can climb at the level. I think the same roughly motion is

00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:35,280
applicable to, you know, to World Cups. I suppose some of those exceptions are you have people like

00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,760
people like Jakob Schubert, who are like Mr. Championships, who can actually perform

00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,280
consistently, but it's a bit up and down World Cups. But you put Jakob in a World

00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,520
Championships or Olympic final and you're going to see the best Jakob you have all season.

00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,960
Yeah, he's a very interesting example. It was really cool to see him get a medal, for sure.

00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:02,880
Yeah, the Janja example is interesting. When I heard that I was like, yeah, but also she's just

00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:08,960
like so much stronger physically, I feel like, than everyone else that maybe that kind of

00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:16,320
overcompensates a bit or compensates for the cycle happening. Because I know for me,

00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:24,560
it feels like I'm like a good bit weaker, like the few days leading up to it. And so I've always

00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:31,360
just thought like, if this ever happens in like an important moment, or like, if I have a competition

00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,440
coming up, even like casually, it's just, it's just not gonna happen.

00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,680
Yeah, it's a real challenge, isn't it? And it's, it's something which I think,

00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:45,600
you know, we should all talk more openly about. I know I've made a conscious effort with the female

00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,560
athletes I've worked with over the years to make that kind of conversation just normal.

00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,840
Because it will have a big impact. And so actually, even being able to talk about it openly,

00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:01,280
it can be, in a way, a really good beginning of accepting that that can happen. And then you can

00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,320
get so right. So how do we manage that? You know, you know, how do we kind of deal with it? If it

00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,720
does happen, because if you've got the comps are on the set, you know, there's a cadence to the

00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:15,840
competitions that matches something similar, it can be really difficult. But coming back to your

00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,840
earlier point, I think it's worth noting that, like you said, like that, I guess, at least my

00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:27,840
coaching philosophy has been around this, that you can compete at the standard, if you can train at

00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:34,240
the standard, and you can deal with the logistical elements of going to do that abroad, and you can

00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,960
mentally deal with the fact that you're going to do it in a different space. But athletes typically

00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:46,960
don't train at 8A plus sport routes, and then go to comps and can onsite 8C magically, it doesn't

00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:53,120
jump that much. And so whether you're a Yanier or a Toby, or historically, like a Shawna, all of

00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,920
these athletes, when you would see them in training, operating at or above world level, and,

00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:03,840
you know, I mean, I think, you know, Tobes is a good example of what he does in training exceeds

00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:09,680
what sort of competition and like an anecdote from this is really good is that I remember doing the

00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:17,840
my first competition back after a period of leave was the Villa World Cup in Switzerland, and Toby

00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:23,520
made the final there. So he climbed on four routes over two days of competition. And we went

00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,480
training before flying home on the Monday, and some of the athletes did like a couple routes,

00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,000
and they were like, well, we've got a competition next weekend, like we're going to save ourselves,

00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:39,040
don't want to do too much. And I think Toby did either like 12 or 16 routes of 8B or up that day.

00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:45,920
And he was like, well, I only pulled on four times over the weekend. Like, that's barely

00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:53,840
anything for me. So it's interesting when you think about it in those in those contexts is for the

00:50:53,840 --> 00:51:01,440
top athletes, the level of declining is not that difficult. But it's mentally draining to be in the

00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,600
competitive arena and all that kind of stuff. And that's what I mean about your training standard

00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,040
has to be there already.

00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:16,960
Right. So like, World Cup climbs should not feel so difficult, basically.

00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,480
Yeah, or at least, let's put it another way, if your training level is here, and you drop a little

00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,120
bit, because of the situation, you could handle anything that you're going to face in a World Cup.

00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,120
But I think that's where the, you know, and anyone who's been to B-Pump and stuff like that will know

00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:40,720
this. Like those some of those boulders are ludicrously hard. I mean, the men in the World

00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:46,880
Cups, you know, all climb like V14, V15, V16, like they're climbing those upper numbers, but they're

00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,840
trying to solve these things in like five minutes. Right. You know, so it's a totally different

00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,000
thing. And often people, I mean, I've had this in the UK, people have said, like, you know, how good

00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,600
are these comp climbers really, you know, on rock? Like, what would they do on rock, really? I was

00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,680
like, well, you see when they have the offseason, they go into the World Cup, and they're like,

00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,560
you see when they have the offseason, they go and do everything, because it's not difficult compared

00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,920
to what they do. And their standard is so high. And the same is true of the women as well. Like,

00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:20,400
can you imagine what Yan Yu's project boulders look like in training? Like, really hard.

00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,600
Yeah, I think sometimes we kind of forget that this is the first time they've seen the boulder,

00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,200
and they only have five minutes. I feel like because a lot of times people are watching and

00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,840
they're like, oh, I could maybe do that, either just because it like looks easy, or maybe they

00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:40,080
really do think that they could do it if they like project it. But you kind of forget this is

00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:45,040
their flash go. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think now World Cups, the standards going up and up,

00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,760
and it's difficult to put a boulder numerical grade on World Cup boulders because they're

00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:58,000
stylistically so different. You know, but in a World Cup qualifier, you know, I mean, I wouldn't

00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,680
want to upset the route setters by putting numbers on it. But, you know, they're pretty hard. But

00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,320
then the semi-finals and finals levels, you know, they're really hard blocks. They're really hard

00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:14,800
blocks. I doubt if you're getting on stuff that's less at the top end, maybe like Olympic level,

00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,120
like underneath like V9, V10. I think that's probably like the minimum level. And you're

00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,040
probably getting up to like V14. And these climbers are doing these in five minutes.

00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,640
So, you know, and I guess that's where, you know, ever go and watch that video of Yanya climbing

00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,760
Buegelheisen sit, that's AC. She looks like she's warming up, right? Or, you know,

00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,040
Brooke Rabbit's did box therapy get downgraded? Is it V15 now or V16?

00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,560
I don't remember.

00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,440
Either way, do you mean like these people climbing incredibly hard that it's on another

00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,280
level, they're such incredible athletes.

00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:54,560
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you eventually made the decision to leave as head coach.

00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,560
How and why did you just make that decision?

00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:06,560
I mean, it was a really tough decision, but GB climbing had this really ambitious set of goals

00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,800
post the pandemic period, you know, that we talked about, like coming out of lockdown,

00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:16,320
I would say possibly too ambitious with the resources that were available at the time.

00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:22,400
And so the team and the management of the team, which I was obviously part of that, but ended up

00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:28,720
kind of like spreading this resource like really thin. And it didn't feel like any one particular

00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:33,920
aspect was enough of a focus that we could really improve things or take things forward in that area.

00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:42,800
And I think that realistically that led to, I guess, real limitations.

00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:48,960
And then that then led to us not being able to deliver in the way that we'd promised.

00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,520
So I guess, you know, you have these big goals, you talk about you're going to go and come in and

00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,040
make these changes, you know, big systematic change, big improvement for the athletes.

00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,400
And then going down that line, the resources are not necessarily as much as you thought.

00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,000
You're trying to spread things really thinly to cover all these different bases and invest

00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,240
in lots of different projects. And that dilutes the quality of you really making a

00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:20,560
difference to the athlete team. And I think that that really compromised for me a lot of relationships

00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:26,480
that were really important to me in my role. And I think that that meant that the team itself was

00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:33,520
losing a lot of credibility with the athletes. And that then led to relationships being strained.

00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:40,960
You know, like for me personally, I was subject to quite a lot of poor behavior from the community

00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,440
in the UK, if I was personally climbing in the gym, things like that, you know, people coming up to

00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:51,200
me and wanting to have conversation, you know, no boundaries, like this person's, you know, in on

00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,200
their personal time, but I want to come and give them my opinion on what do you be climbing, should

00:55:55,200 --> 00:56:02,240
or shouldn't be doing or, you know, kind of like internet forums with really negative, you know,

00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:08,000
quite toxic behavior. And I think that the strain on the relationships meant that I was feeling

00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,720
quite dissatisfied with, you know, with the work and with what we were trying to achieve. And

00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,400
I'm somebody who works through a certain set of principles and I've got pretty high standards

00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:26,000
when it comes to the work that I want to do. And I just felt that through no anyone individuals, but

00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:32,880
that had become, you know, unsustainable for me, the challenges of being in that space for that

00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,960
amount of time, given that I wasn't satisfied with the level we were operating at, with that

00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,160
it wasn't aligning with my principles or values professionally. And I think that there was just

00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:47,760
this mounting pressure from the community, like ramping up like all of the time to the point where

00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:53,680
the scrutiny on myself and the other coaches was so much that it was almost unbearable at times.

00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,400
You know, that was really difficult. And I think, you know, it's important that I'm honest with you

00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,720
about it, you know, talk to it, because I think when you're a national team coach, you really are

00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:08,000
in the firing line, you are held to a standard that not a lot of other coaches are, you know,

00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,880
in the UK. There was all sorts of like practice from other coaches that you'd consider not

00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,600
necessarily super professional and poor. But if you're wearing that, you know, the GB jersey,

00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:22,400
like everyone is coming for you if you put a foot wrong. And that would include in the professional

00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,600
capacity, but then also even your personal life, like it was becoming a huge challenge.

00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,240
So I think for me, I got to a point where I made the difficult decision to step down,

00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,840
not for any other reason other than for me personally, it wasn't

00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:46,000
great for my health, my physical and mental health. You know, and also as well, like I always

00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,440
viewed myself as just being a custodian of that role for a period of time, you know, like I knew

00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,200
I was never going to be the head coach forever. And I just wanted to do the best job that I could

00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,040
with the period of time that I was fortunate enough to have it. And I didn't feel like I was

00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:05,760
doing my best job because of the constraints of everything around that coupled with like, you

00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:11,200
know, a huge amount of declining health and stress related to it. I just was like, actually, this is

00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:18,800
this is the right time for me to leave. It was a really difficult decision, but I think it was I

00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:25,440
think it was for the best for myself. Yeah. When you say like the community pressures that like,

00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:34,400
fans or like parents or athletes, just everything. I think a bit of a mix really. And I think that

00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:40,560
what happens quite a lot of the time is people are not really in possession of the full set of the

00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:46,400
facts. They're in possession of their perspective. And I guess a bit like politics, right? Like,

00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:52,880
when a perspective is ingrained and communicated routinely like that, people believe that that is

00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,440
the truth, but actually it's not the truth. It's just a perspective. And when you don't have the

00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:05,040
opportunity from maybe your seat as GB head coach to really communicate exactly this is the situation

00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:10,480
or do it in the same way, you just find that the narrative just becomes totally negative,

00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:17,360
and totally misrepresentative of the situation. And that was happening in particular through the

00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:24,400
community of personal coaches, of parents, of athletes as well. And so all these people are

00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:30,320
kind of primed to sort of like think of it negatively. So, they're coming into training

00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,640
sessions and people are carrying all of this in with them, their frustrations, their upset,

00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:39,440
their kind of baggage from outside. And so it meant it was really difficult to have really

00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:46,640
quality relationships and coaching is a relational role. So that was really, really difficult. And I

00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:54,160
do think that some of the behaviour individuals in the community is really not cool, is not helping

00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,480
as GB move forward. And in many ways, it's fantastic the athletes do as well as they do,

00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:07,840
given that context. But yeah, it's really tricky. And yeah, I've definitely had interactions with

01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,400
people from the community in Great Britain, where those people have just totally overstepped the

01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:19,120
boundary. And I realised actually, to be honest, that you're basically being criticised by people

01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:26,080
with less experience than you, as if they know better. And that's how you're going to be able

01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:33,360
to be better. And that's hard. And to no means am I saying I was right. I'm very open to that,

01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:38,480
that I may have been wrong on certain things. But I think when you're interested with that

01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:44,000
responsibility, you've applied to that role, you know, you've been better and you've taken that

01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:49,280
and you're really trying your best, but everybody else just wants to kind of tear it down. It's not

01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,560
the easiest situation to be in. And you know, that's the that's kind of like the complex

01:00:54,560 --> 01:01:00,160
landscape, I think. And to be honest, I think that's also true of elite sport generally,

01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:08,160
but definitely in the UK. And I think that like Gareth Southgate, who was the former England

01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,360
manager, summed it up really well for me when he said, you know, I'm involved in a sport that I

01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:19,520
love, but in an industry I hate. I wouldn't say I hate the climbing community, but I'm involved

01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,640
with sport that I love, but in a community that's extremely difficult, extremely difficult. And I

01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:30,240
think that makes it hard to do your good work. I mean, not to like, dig up past trauma or anything.

01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,240
So like, if, if it's a if it's too much, just let me know. But is there anything you remember

01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,000
hearing someone say, either like online or some something that someone said to you in person that

01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:49,760
you remember was like, oh, this was like a really personal attack or like something that was really

01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:54,960
hard to hear? I mean, I mean, the thing is, is I'm always open for professional criticism

01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:59,040
in the right context, because sometimes you have to acknowledge that you might not have all the

01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:04,000
answers and you need to be open to it. I think when that's like, you know, imagine like,

01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,760
you know, like, like your cup, like your capacity to like absorb that feedback is like this big,

01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,120
it felt like every day people were coming in like pouring like a bucket into this, and it was just

01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:20,240
flowing over the top. So your capacity to really absorb that starts to dwindle. And so I think that

01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:24,640
in terms of people saying things, I never had an interaction with a parent where they said, you

01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,800
know, this is something that could be better at GB climbing. And I thought, I totally disagree with

01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,960
you. I was like, I actually agree with what you're saying. I totally agree with that the premise of

01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:39,200
that. The way that you're going about it, I don't agree with. And so yeah, there's like a lot of

01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:45,120
like stuff on the internet and you know, people sort of saying like, like, Tom Greenwell is a

01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:50,560
useless, you know, head coach and easy competent and you know, all that kind of stuff. But that

01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,560
didn't really bother me. But there was definitely one instance when I was actually climbing with

01:02:54,560 --> 01:03:00,000
two of the other coaches in a climbing gym, and I was on the kilts board, right. And I went to do

01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,880
a move and all the lights changed on the board at the time. And I was like, oh, that's odd.

01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,440
And then like, I got on again, tried another boulder problem and the lights changed again.

01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,720
And this happened like routinely and what was happening is a member of the community was stood

01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,640
there with their phone and they'd like changed the boulder problem when I was on it.

01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:20,720
So crazy. Oh my god.

01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:25,760
And they were thinking this was kind of like cool and like we're sticking it to GB and all this

01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:30,000
kind of thing. And I actually saw this person in the climbing wall later and they thought it was

01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:36,960
funny. They're like, how funny was my joke? I was like, this is not, you know, this is not funny.

01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,160
And so I guess there's that and I think there's a lot of people out there looking to like

01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,840
discredit you professionally. I've heard other personal coaches saying like, oh, he doesn't know

01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:51,440
what he's doing and all that kind of thing. And I guess it's really tricky. And you know, imagine

01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:57,760
most people being in a position when people come into your workplace to criticize what you're doing

01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:05,680
directly. It's a pretty tough gig. But that being said, there is a lot of positive stuff out there

01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,520
as well. And there's a lot of very positive parents and athletes who are super supportive

01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:16,160
that I had great relationships with. And what was really lovely is I remember coaching the junior

01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:25,600
team and Nathan Phillips won the first gold medal in junior bouldering in Laval. I think that was

01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:31,520
like 2015 or something. And what was really beautiful is the last comp I did was when Toby

01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:39,280
qualified for the Olympics in the same city in Laval 10 years later. So it kind of felt like this

01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:47,120
like perfect like loop of time. And I'm genuinely really grateful for all the positive stuff that

01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,720
I've experienced. I've experienced a lot of negativity within that role, but I've also

01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:57,360
experienced a lot of great moments in particular with athletes, and in particular with parents

01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:02,800
who've been very supportive of me. And actually, I wouldn't I wouldn't change that for the world. So

01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:09,680
I guess like, good, some really big highs and some pretty deep lows. But I think that's part of

01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:14,960
part of the the challenge. I think if you're a national team coach, especially the head coach.

01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:21,360
Yeah, geez, I mean, I'm sorry to hear about that. That's like, kind of wild. But yeah, I guess that

01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:28,000
kind of comes with anything competition climbing related. There's a lot of there's always a lot of

01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:36,640
talk online and negativity. And it's like kind of a weird experience to public be like publicly

01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:43,760
doing your job like that and have everyone comment on how you're doing your job. So yeah, definitely

01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,800
or I guess at least measure measuring you by an outcome which you're not fully in control of,

01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,440
you know, I think is maybe the worst thing. But it's really interesting point you say that because

01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:58,720
I think that over the last few years, there has been a very positive movement towards more awareness

01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:04,560
around mental health in particular for athletes. You know, and athletes may be not being treated

01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:09,680
like these robotic beings that just come out and perform and that's it, you know, they're people with

01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:16,560
real lives and emotions and feelings and other priorities as well. But I really feel that, you

01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:24,640
know, when we talk about coaching as a subgroup of high performance sports, well, we very rarely talk

01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:30,160
about the pressure that the coaches under and the scrutiny that they're put under to deliver as well

01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:37,600
because it is just, you know, just as frequent and just as big. And, you know, I think also when we

01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:42,960
think about coaching, especially elite level, the blueprint we have of a coach is, you know,

01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:47,760
someone who never shows vulnerability, who's relentless and tireless in their commitment,

01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:52,720
who sacrifices everything for the, you know, success of the athletes that they work with.

01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:59,120
And actually, I'm not entirely sure that that blueprint is the most healthy blueprint to have.

01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:04,000
I mean, there's a really good example of I think it was in the 2016 Rio Olympics,

01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:12,560
GB England, GB, yes, a Great Britain hockey women's coach, Danny Carey suffered a heart attack

01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:18,800
for a while at the games and then got out of bed to go back to coach like this, like last game.

01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:25,120
And this was, this was herald as this like heroic act of incredible coaching. Whereas actually you

01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:30,560
look at that objectively and think, like, realistically, is that what we expect people to do?

01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:38,080
And from my experience, coaching is not a nine to five, but it can become, you know, all encompassing

01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:44,720
at the end of the spectrum. And I think that when you look at divorce rates, burnout, mental health

01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:50,080
challenges, those things are all really prevalent in coaching. And I think we could all do a lot

01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:56,960
better as a community to, I guess, at the minimum offer a degree of empathy, so that people who are

01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:02,480
giving so much energy to try and help others achieve, but also understand that those individuals

01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:09,360
can't be on 24 seven on coaching, like they need time off, they need to have downtime, they need to,

01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:16,480
you know, avoid burnout. And that's definitely something that I unfortunately had to learn the

01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:23,760
hard way through this job. But I really want to be an advocate moving forward for coaches to,

01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,000
you know, talk more openly about the challenges that you experience professionally,

01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:33,440
and how that impacts you personally, and that we should be prioritizing, not only athlete

01:08:33,440 --> 01:08:39,360
well-being, but coach well-being as well within the arena of high performance sport.

01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:45,840
What were the hardest parts of coaching for you? Other than, I guess, like the dealing with the

01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,200
community issues?

01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,680
I mean, I think that definitely as an international coach, you know, the season's pretty long, but

01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:57,840
from kind of like April time through to October time, you know, you're on the road a lot. And so

01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:03,840
that has a huge impact on your, you know, your social connections, on your family life. You know,

01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:10,720
you miss birthdays, you miss weddings, you miss family vacations, you know, and it's a very

01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:17,280
relentless schedule. And so I think that two things, one, what it does is it takes away a lot of

01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:23,200
opportunity for you to identify with yourself outside of your coaching role, which therefore

01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:29,280
puts a lot of pressure almost internally on your sense of self as a coach, in terms of the results,

01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:35,760
the team, how they perform. I think you can be judged quite transactionally, you know, in terms

01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:41,040
of your effectiveness in your role, but also your effectiveness as an individual, you know, when

01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,440
you're that tired and you've taken that many flights and you're exhausted, you know, you're

01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:51,680
taking that many flights and you're exhausted. It's a very hard place to keep giving your energy to,

01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:58,320
you know, to somebody else, you know, and actually, whereas like, you know, some athletes are like,

01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,640
oh, it's really tiring going to a comp. That's like, yeah, but you're one person and you do one

01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:09,120
comp, whereas as a coach, you do the comp for every single athlete. So you're switched on,

01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:16,000
focused to exponentially longer. And then you're expected to be like, right, go to bed, back up

01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:21,920
next day. And I'm just as focused as I was yesterday. So the, in terms of answering your point,

01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:27,840
I think the hardest parts are, or at least in my experience, was not having much downtime to recharge,

01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:33,840
but constantly being a position where you're giving your energy. And that doesn't leave much

01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:39,760
leftover. And if you're not connecting socially with something that's outside of that, it's a very

01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:44,640
high pressured space to be, I would say. Yeah, I actually didn't really think about how you kind

01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:50,640
of have to be there for every athlete at every comp that they go to. That is actually a lot,

01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:57,840
a lot to deal with. And like, just in terms of traveling, I know we talked a little bit before

01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:05,120
we started this interview about my exhaustion with traveling, just for fun, even I was just traveling

01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:13,200
by my own accord for fun. But it was a lot. So what were some of your like favorite and least

01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:21,280
favorite moments traveling around on the circuit? Favorite and least. That's good. So I guess I always

01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:27,280
was really, really fond of the summer period of lead World Cups in Europe, where you'd fly to

01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:32,240
Switzerland to do Vilar, and then you do Chamonix and Branson like back to back, like being in like

01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:36,080
the French Alps around that, you know, period of time or in Switzerland, you know, that's like a

01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:39,840
beautiful period of time. And I often found the team were very close during that, we'd spend a lot

01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:44,480
of time together. And, you know, we'd enjoy those spaces, you know, Chamonix is beautiful, like

01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:49,840
you're competing underneath, you know, Mont Blanc, it's stunning. So I always have really fond

01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:58,320
memories of that comp. I think what I have a lot of fond memories of are the little bits in between,

01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:03,760
to be honest, you know, like a lot of times, people think of the arena and like that's where

01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:11,760
I guess those memories come from. And undoubtedly, you know, Toby's performance in the VAL is one of

01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:16,480
the greatest climbing performances I've ever seen in my 10 years doing this. It was phenomenal. And

01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:22,320
I loved that experience. But as well as being there celebrating with Liam and Trist when he won that

01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:29,920
comp, I also really loved seeing Toby have his first beer after that. You know, it seems so mad

01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,080
that like you're there and there's this incredible world class performance from this young man. And

01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:38,880
then three hours later, post-doping control, you know, you're having you within having his first

01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:45,600
beer in a small pub, you know, Laval while you're having a pizza. And I think that's where there's

01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:50,960
like such a human element to it when you're closer to it, like the back of house, like these ethics

01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:56,080
are people. And some of those, you know, moments are really lovely. And, you know, I reflect back

01:12:56,080 --> 01:13:03,120
on a pandemic, like we had a birthday party for Molly in training. And that was a wonderful,

01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:11,680
you know, wonderful thing. And then I think about, I guess, again, like the team made me a birthday

01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,240
cake when I was away, because my birthday is in July. So I was always away internationals.

01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:22,720
You know, things like that were just wonderful, wonderful experiences. Some of the least,

01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,960
least fun is when you miss a flight and you then like, Oh my God, I'm going to have to like now

01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:31,680
wait in an airport for a really long time. I remember actually, I went to the Jakarta World Cup

01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:39,280
on my own and I missed on my way back, I missed my connection flight and had like a 10 hour layover.

01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:47,360
I always fly back from Indonesia like, Oh, just horrendous. I can also remember when Hamish won

01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:55,600
his medal at the Moscow World Champs, the entire team had way too many drinks after that. I remember

01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:01,840
the journey back home from that being particularly savage. That was definitely a real low point.

01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:08,080
But yeah, when we're away traveling with the team, it's vast majority of it is really,

01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:12,880
really positive memories. There's a lot of very cool folks out there doing that with those jobs.

01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,360
And it's been a privilege to spend time with them. When is your birthday, by the way? My birthday is

01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:24,880
also in July. Oh, is it? Oh, mine's the sixth. Oh, shoot. So close. The second. The second. Oh,

01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:30,400
nice. I was kind of hopeful. Maybe we would share a birthday. That would be cool. That would be cool.

01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:34,240
I mean, we'd have to celebrate from like other ends of the Atlantic. See, I can't come there.

01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:38,960
You can come to the UK. I could. I can come to the UK. I was actually considering, but I'm

01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:45,680
I'm not sure. Still considering. I'll let you know if I do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, coming for your

01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:49,440
birthday would be a good time because it'll be the summer and it'll be much nicer weather.

01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:56,560
I know. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to leave the weather here. But yeah, honestly, like having a summer

01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:03,040
birthday in July, like traveling around that time, doing comps, working. I can see how that would be

01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:10,240
a tough time. How would you suggest to other coach to like help manage all that stress? Is there like

01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,480
anything that you've learned in your time that really helped you manage the stress of

01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:22,000
always being on the job? I mean, one thing I think is really maybe not maybe considered is that you're

01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:29,520
performing as well as a coach. You know, so over the time, I got really good at developing like my

01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:35,840
own routines. You know, I'd know I'm going to go in tomorrow. We've got a 12 hour day. It's going

01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:40,640
to be baking hot, you know, so I need to be well rested, well hydrated and all that kind of stuff.

01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:45,200
So in many ways, like a lot like an athlete would as well, like I would take care of my nutrition,

01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:50,320
I try and get an early, you know, early sleep. I would stretch. I found a lot of that put me in a

01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:56,880
very good mindset to actually undertake the job. And also some of that would then happen on the

01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:01,760
other side as well. I would find ways to relax, whether it be like my own personal space and my

01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:08,160
own time. So I think one of the big things is creating boundaries and being really clear with

01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:12,400
your communication with them, with the athletes that you work with, you know, make them aware that

01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:20,400
at this certain point, you're switching off. And unless it's a total emergency, you can't contact

01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:26,640
me until this time. Protect the time for yourself. I think that's a really important thing. I think

01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:32,240
also as well, if you're an international coach and you travel around a lot, make time for you to enjoy

01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:39,280
some of that experience for yourself. You know, connect with some of the coaches if you want to,

01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:44,560
have friends who maybe you can meet, go and do something different. Because I think when it all

01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:52,240
becomes about the arena, I think you can maybe lose some perspective or you're always switched

01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:56,000
on mentally, like the comps already begun in your mind, like a couple of days out or after when

01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:02,000
actually it's good to find the switch off. But I think what's been really helpful for me is that I

01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:08,480
have like drawn up over the last few years, like a really trusted group of people who helped me

01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:14,160
problem solve professionally. And so they're always there if I need them as peers and as mentors,

01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:20,320
and I can really go to them with challenges that I'm facing if I need to play catch with a problem.

01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:28,400
So I've found that really, really helpful to just feel supported in the endeavor as well.

01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:30,640
And sometimes also put some perspective on the thing.

01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:36,880
So then looking forward into the future of the sport, you are still pretty involved.

01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,280
Where do you kind of see the sport headed?

01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:44,880
I mean, you know, it's really interesting. So I have a new part time role in the UK where

01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:50,160
working with the coach development side of things. And we're currently going through this process

01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:55,120
looking at these coaching awards where we train and thinking about in 10 years time from now,

01:17:55,760 --> 01:18:00,160
we need to create something that will still be servicing the coaches of 10 years in the future

01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:03,920
with the right information and right knowledge. And then it was like, all right, so what does

01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,720
climbing, yeah, same question. What does climbing look like in 10 years from now?

01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:14,640
And I think if we look back at where it's come from to where it is at now, that can give us

01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:20,720
some idea of where it's going to go. And so firstly, if we look at competition climbing,

01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:26,320
often it was like, I would say that the people were still athletes 10, 15 years ago, but,

01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:32,240
you know, probably climbed outside a bunch as well. Training was less formal, less structured.

01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:38,720
You know, often like going to the World Cups would include like loads of other things alongside it.

01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:46,240
Whereas now we have this group of athletes who are very dedicated professionals. And I think that

01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:51,760
when we look at maybe even things like the location of IFSC competitions, where they've moved to,

01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:57,760
just how successful things like Paris were in terms of the global positioning of the sport,

01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:03,360
that's all happened in a very short space of time. And the money investment that's coming in is

01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:09,280
really, you know, increasing that. So I think that if we move forward 10 years from now,

01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:15,680
I can imagine us being even more professional than we are now having, you know, like, yes,

01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:21,760
the World Cup circuit, maybe like a private, I don't know, like a private sponsored teams

01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:27,920
circuit. Like I can imagine that running alongside like a professional league alongside IFSC stuff.

01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:31,840
I can imagine. What would that look like?

01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:36,160
You know what I was thinking about this the other day, imagine like you like Formula One,

01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:41,520
you've got like Red Bull, like as a team and you race for Red Bull. Like, I mean, if you look at

01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:45,520
Red Bull's roster of athletes right now, imagine what the Red Bull team for climbing would look

01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:50,480
like. It'd be pretty phenomenal. And then you could have like the added ass team or, I don't know,

01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:53,920
yeah, that kind of thing. You know, so I can imagine something like that being potential.

01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:59,920
I think that climbers can stand to be full time professional athletes and earn good money from it,

01:20:00,480 --> 01:20:07,680
working with sponsors. I think that most national teams will probably have like elite centers,

01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:10,960
you know, like the one the US is going to build in Salt Lake. I can imagine that being a real

01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:18,320
professional thing. And I can imagine more and more athletes getting, you know, an experience

01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:24,160
where they're part of a really well-funded team set up, where they get all their sports,

01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:28,560
medicine needs covered and things like that. I can imagine we can really be there. And so I guess

01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:35,520
more akin to like, I don't know, let's look at tennis, an example. Like, why, what would it take

01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:41,680
for climbing to be like tennis? Like, would we be there in 10 years? Maybe not, but it could be big

01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:42,480
like that.

01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:50,800
Yeah, I guess in regards to tennis, I not like some I recently watched a video about money in

01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:57,440
tennis though, and how expensive it is, how expensive it is for athletes to get into it who

01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:04,080
aren't already like at the top. So it's not all sunshine rainbows in the tennis world.

01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:09,760
Oh, no. Yeah, no, totally. You're totally right. And I think that that always exists. Like, the

01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:15,040
money in elite sport is normally available for those who are already succeeding. And the journey

01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:20,800
to get to that is you have to break into that group before you have any of that. And that's

01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:28,400
that's like universally a thing. I suppose that's just different. Maybe in team sport, where you can

01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:33,120
get picked up and you're like in a team's academy from earlier, maybe that's different. But I think

01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:39,360
for individual sports, like you're definitely right there. I think that's the way it is.

01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:43,920
I think it's a long journey to the top and it's hard work.

01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:48,960
Yeah. So sometimes I just kind of wonder like maybe this is just how sports are like, it's not

01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:54,480
necessarily just a climbing issue where there's not enough money in climbing. But overall, it's

01:21:54,480 --> 01:22:02,320
just kind of like that for all athletes. But maybe it's more just like, even for the top athletes in

01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,920
climbing, there's not that much money in the sport for them.

01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:11,200
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess like, maybe that maybe like for Yanya, maybe Yanya is making

01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:17,600
good money. I don't know. I'm sure she is. But yeah, you're right. It's the preserve of a small

01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:24,000
few at the moment. And I guess that will cascade down a little bit. But like you said, maybe not

01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:31,920
to the extent we would like to think it would do. But I mean, you know, going to a World Cup

01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:36,000
is different to performing at a World Cup and performing at a World Cup is different to consistently

01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:42,160
winning World Cups. You know, so I guess the distribution is largely driven by performance.

01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:48,480
So I guess that's the same anywhere, all industries.

01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:56,240
I was just thinking there was a sound bite I got from last interview that really stuck with me.

01:22:56,240 --> 01:23:01,920
Literally. You said that you like to coach people to their own individual Olympics.

01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:07,120
Yeah. And yeah, to be clear, like that's not even mine. I stole that from a swimming coach who's

01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:14,720
very famous in the UK. But I like the notion of every individual, you know, not all athletes are

01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:23,440
going to do what Toby's just done. Like it can't happen. But all athletes can reach their own

01:23:23,440 --> 01:23:31,520
personal potential. You know, they can be the best that they can. And I really enjoy the process of

01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:38,320
finding out what makes an athlete work and tick and how can we, I guess, go through a process of

01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:44,400
creating their own individualized approach so that they can be the best version that they can.

01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:47,920
And for some, that might be a World Youth Championships. For some, that might be a

01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:53,600
European Champs or European Cup. Or, you know, for some, it could be like a World Cup. And

01:23:55,040 --> 01:24:00,320
I think that as long as that individual is like being the best that they can be as a coach,

01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:06,880
your job is to help them find that and bring that out of them. And if you can do that for everybody,

01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,480
everybody's reached their potential. And it should never be viewed as a failure

01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:17,920
because you never won a World Cup, that your career was a waste. Like for some people,

01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:24,640
that isn't possible. But if you were the best you could be, then I think that that's really,

01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:31,840
really powerful. And, you know, not to be underestimated, you can be a great ambassador

01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:37,440
and role model for your country without winning a World Cup. You know, and I think that actually in

01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:43,520
the UK, we've got many examples of phenomenal athletes that maybe didn't win Olympic medals

01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:49,360
like Toby's just done, but will have inspired others through, you know, consistently being

01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:54,880
representing their country, through consistently working hard and, you know, being out there doing

01:24:54,880 --> 01:25:00,080
their thing. I think it's really cool. And so I enjoy helping everyone reach that.

01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:10,080
I don't know. I guess it resonated with me because sometimes I think about the athletes who maybe aren't like constantly winning or like podiuming or anything like that. I'm like,

01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:17,440
what keeps them going? Like, what is the point? But yeah, there's much more to the sport than just

01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,600
winning a medal or like winning a prize or something like that.

01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,520
Yeah. I mean, in a way, like, you know, if you look at some of the really big World Cups, you

01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:33,440
could have like 120 athletes in the gendered field. Does that mean that there is one winner and 119 losers?

01:25:35,440 --> 01:25:40,560
No. You know, and so I think that's where elite sport is quite brutal.

01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,680
You know, but I think that all athletes want to feel like they're progressing, they're evolving,

01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:49,360
you know, that they're delivering the best performances that they can.

01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:54,000
I think what's just brutal about competition is there is like a ranking sheet. So you're

01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:59,520
automatically compared against everyone. So you have to be very mentally robust to be in that space

01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:07,680
repeatedly. You know, and also it's, you know, did I make the semi-finals or not? Did I make the final or not?

01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:16,000
He or she did and I didn't, you know, that's all pretty, you know, common for athletes to experience highs and lows with that kind of thing.

01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:23,360
You know, but for some, I want every athlete I've ever worked to look back on their career

01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:31,520
and go, you know what, I did the best I damn could. And I was happy to, you know, to step away from it at that point,

01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:38,960
being like I've trained my hardest, I was the best version of myself, and I represented my country really, really well.

01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:46,240
And, you know, for some of those athletes that will mean winning medals and for some of those athletes, it will mean not.

01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:50,320
But that doesn't mean their endeavor is any less worthwhile.

01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:59,440
Yeah, definitely. Okay, so I guess going back a little bit to yourself, anything in the future you're particularly looking forward to?

01:26:59,440 --> 01:27:06,160
So, well, firstly, I'm just recovering from my knee surgery, which we talked about a little bit offline before we began this.

01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:12,400
So I'm looking forward to being fully mobile again, in the first and foremost.

01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:18,480
But I think, you know, professionally, I'm looking forward to doing more private coaching.

01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:23,280
I've already been back doing that for a few months, like globally, which has been really good fun.

01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:31,440
I'm looking forward to doing some more consultancy stuff and working with Mountain Training here in the UK to help coach education.

01:27:31,440 --> 01:27:39,840
But I'm also working on a service for coach mentorship along the lines of what we discussed earlier with a sports psychologist.

01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:46,640
So I'm really hoping that as we go forward, we can offer more support to coaches out there

01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:51,920
to help them navigate the difficult topsy turvy world of being a professional coach in climbing.

01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:59,920
And hopefully through that, help more people to live their best, the best life.

01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:05,040
But also, I guess, in a way, you know, we talked about coaching the athletes to their Olympics.

01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:10,640
I'd like to support every coach to their own Olympics, whatever that might be.

01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,440
Awesome. Okay. Well, can't wait to see that.

01:28:13,440 --> 01:28:21,520
If you have any links that you want me to share or send out, send them to me and I'll put them in the description for people.

01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:27,120
So I think those are the questions I had. I will go into the Discord questions again.

01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:32,880
There are like a couple that maybe you have different answers for this time around. Not sure.

01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:41,120
But yeah, so the first one, to what extent are national teams, actual teams versus just a random collection of strong climbers in the country?

01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:43,920
And do you feel like it makes a difference? It's a good question.

01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:49,760
I think it's probably different for each different nation as well.

01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:55,280
I know that some nations, the athletes train entirely separately or in different squads.

01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:58,640
And then when they come together, they come into the team.

01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,400
And so I guess in that case, maybe they're made up of different training squads.

01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:07,040
And so GB is a bit like that. But then I think France is also kind of similar.

01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:17,200
But then the other end of the spectrum, you've got like an Austria or a Slovenia where they are more of a harmonious team and they spend a lot of time together and train together a lot more.

01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:23,200
And that is like that. So I think it's probably a bit of a mix, really, to be honest.

01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:29,760
I wouldn't say it's a one size fits all. But I would also say that obviously it's highly, highly competitive at this end.

01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:43,040
So I think there is always probably going to be naturally those like slightly into team rivalries at times, or there's going to be like competitiveness and who's currently like the leading athlete in your team.

01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:53,040
I think that's always going to be part of it. But I would say it's not random because all those people are there because they've been chosen because they're the best in their country.

01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:59,120
But I would say the level to which that's a really cohesive team is probably quite varied.

01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:03,600
As well as the other part of that question is, does it make a difference?

01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:09,280
I personally believe that having a cohesive team set up is definitely facilitative of performance.

01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:20,080
I think that the losses are dispersed in the same way the successes are dispersed and everyone feels the benefit of that.

01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:24,400
I think it can be challenging to create a really harmonious team environment.

01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:32,320
But I do think that when there's mutual respect for everybody and you're all there working for a common purpose, I think that's really powerful.

01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:40,640
And I think it makes the difficult and somewhat lonely road of international performance climbing more bearable.

01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:43,280
When you're spending it with people, you have close relationships with them.

01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:52,640
Yeah, definitely. And then, yeah, just like the competitive aspect of it probably helps a lot as well in like pushing yourself further than you think you could on your own.

01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:53,760
Yeah, yeah.

01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:57,360
Last one, I guess. Most climbers now have their own private coaches.

01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:02,960
Did that ever interfere with the work of you as the national team coach?

01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:06,560
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. It is really tricky.

01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:11,360
I mean, often you can have maybe a different approach that you want to take.

01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:13,280
But the personal coach has a different opinion.

01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:20,160
And then it comes down to this jostling of, well, you know, I think my opinion is more than yours, you know, mine, yours.

01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:25,840
So that was at times very difficult for me to manage. I've had plenty of experience of that.

01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:35,760
And I think sometimes personal coaches can become incredibly anxious around an athlete coming into a different team space and you know how that will go.

01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:49,360
So I think that that is a really that's one of the very difficult complexities that comes with being a national team coach versus personal coach is that you sometimes have to work with personal coaches as well and kind of broker deals and build relationships there.

01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:54,880
And I've had some examples where it's worked really, really well as well. But yeah, for some where it's been really challenging.

01:31:54,880 --> 01:32:00,160
Yeah. What are some of like the challenging examples or the ones where it worked out super well?

01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:17,440
Yeah. I mean, I've had athletes been like coming into international events where my coach says that I'm not to warm up with you because you don't know what you're doing and things like that or things like that, which is really like not helping the athlete.

01:32:17,440 --> 01:32:26,640
You know, or, you know, not me, but another coach had an athlete from GB said when I'm older, I want to be a coach, but not like you.

01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:33,920
You're not really a coach and then named that coach. Yeah, we found that quite funny at the time.

01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:36,400
But then similarly, there's been loads of positive examples.

01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:43,840
I think the work with Toby and Erin in particular really stand out of the way that that's very collaborative.

01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:54,720
And actually, when we look at which athletes have performed really, really well this last season, it's the ones where the personal coach, the athlete and then the GB coaches are all working towards the same thing.

01:32:54,720 --> 01:33:00,640
And that same vision is for the athlete to do really well. So that's that's worked really well.

01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:07,200
All right. Well, that's all the questions. Do you have any like final thoughts or words of wisdom you want to get out there?

01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:14,480
Probably not. Just I really just to say thank you again for having me back on for Take Two.

01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:18,160
Definitely. It's been really good. It's been really good chatting.

01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:25,600
And I think really like when I first the one thing I would say is when I first started this, there was no pathway.

01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:32,400
And in many ways, like I had to like make make my own future to get the opportunity.

01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:40,320
And I can remember my dad saying like when I went to university, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to get into coaching and I want to take the sport forward in my country.

01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:46,800
So it's very rewarding to be in a position later when I can look back and say I went some distance to achieving that.

01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,840
But I think most coaches now don't know where to start.

01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:54,720
And I think sometimes you've just got to take it upon yourself to get out there and start.

01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,520
You know, don't wait for it to be the perfect moment.

01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:05,120
Like make it make that moment for yourself. You know, and now there's lots of people coaching and it's great.

01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:10,720
You know, I think it's fantastic. More and more people can have access to a knowledgeable person to support them on their journey now.

01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:14,560
So I think the more people coaching, it's great.

01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:17,600
It's yeah, it's cool. It's cool. I enjoy it.

01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:20,480
And I really enjoyed seeing how the sport's changed over the last few years.

01:34:20,480 --> 01:34:23,200
And I'm really excited to see where it goes in the next 10 years.

01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:26,480
Awesome. Great final words to end on.

01:34:26,480 --> 01:34:29,680
Yeah, thank you so much for joining me again.

01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:34,160
First episode I've ever had to redo. So thank you for taking the time.

01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:37,120
You want to let people know where they can find you?

01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:40,720
Yeah, I guess if everyone's interested in coaching, what's there more you can reach out to me.

01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:46,400
Probably like my Instagram handle will be fine. Like green old Tom. That's my professional one.

01:34:46,400 --> 01:34:54,960
Yeah, you can follow me there. Shoot me a DM if you want. I love talking to other coaches. That'd be great.

01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:57,200
I think that's probably probably the best way right now.

01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:00,960
Or you can email me at Tommy Green, all that gmail.com as well.

01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:03,440
I'm more than happy to answer any questions.

01:35:03,440 --> 01:35:05,600
All right. I'll put those links in the description.

01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:09,920
Well, thank you so much for joining me. And it was great to talk to you again.

01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:12,160
Yeah, thanks. Likewise, always a pleasure.

01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:15,440
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.

01:35:15,440 --> 01:35:21,200
Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super fake climber.

01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:26,320
If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can

01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:32,000
continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description.

01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:51,680
Thanks again for listening.