6: Allegra Maguire, Climbing Psychologist

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Second place is a failure for her.

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Giving power to those voices that say, you need to do this climb on lead or it's not

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valuable or it doesn't count.

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I've heard so much.

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Men have much higher levels of competitiveness and this is definitely driven by a lot of

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social pressure.

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Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

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I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Allegra Maguire.

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Allegra is a mental climbing coach who has experienced coaching all types of climbers

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from beginners to World Cup youth athletes.

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In this episode, we'll talk about what it was like coaching one of her athletes at the

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Youth World Champs, how to deal with fear of falling, competing in Swedish league championships

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after only two years of climbing, and the competitive mindset difference between males

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and females.

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Hope you enjoy this episode with Allegra.

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Yeah, I'm glad we finally got a chance to schedule this.

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It's been a long time.

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Yeah, I'm sorry.

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I've been so busy.

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I've done so many things in the meantime.

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Yeah, definitely.

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So, yeah, there's a lot to catch up on.

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But yeah, so far, how are you doing today?

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I'm good, yeah.

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I've just started basically becoming a junior trainer for climbing as well.

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So a lot of stuff going on.

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Yeah.

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Do you feel like you're finally settled in after Korea and everything?

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Oh, yes, definitely.

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I took a while because after I came back from Korea, I got sick as well.

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And I kept getting naps.

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And so it took a bit.

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And how are you?

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Yeah, I'm good.

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I haven't been doing as much traveling as you lately, but maybe soon.

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Did you do any climbing yourself while you were in South Korea?

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Just some climbing in one indoor gym and not so much more.

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Too much.

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Yeah.

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How was it there?

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Very cool, actually.

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In the climbing, I mean, or in general?

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Both, yeah.

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Just from the climbing perspective, there's been a lot of talking going on about leveling

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up the level of root setters in different gyms because the level of root setting was

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very, very high in basically every boulder and gym in Seoul.

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And I mean, I had a lot of discussions with the Italian team because I might be starting

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to work with them next year.

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And for the rest of South Korea was very similar to Japan, I have to say.

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So I wasn't too culture shocked.

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And I know Japan very well.

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I used to live there for a while.

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So it was summer and Asia in summer, humid and hot.

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It was tough.

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But super cool life.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I've never been, but I really want to go.

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How's the podcast going?

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I saw that on Instagram, we're gathering followers.

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Yeah, it's been okay.

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It's been okay.

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It's a lot of work.

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Yeah, just like editing and distribution and stuff like that.

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Or I guess, yeah, getting the advertisement out there is always difficult, but it's been

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a whole process.

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But yeah, I feel like a lot has changed since the first time we tried to film this.

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Okay, like?

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Well, I'm slightly less scared every time I do an interview.

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And I'm a little bit more in the flow of the editing process.

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But there's still a lot I want to change once I have the time.

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Makes sense, makes sense.

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Yeah, experience changes a lot.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I'm sure you're familiar with that with your YouTube channel.

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Definitely, and I heard some of the podcasts that you've done.

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And it's very cool stuff, I have to say.

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And I usually listen to podcasts.

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Thank you for making the exception.

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Yeah, I'm really grateful for the guests I've had in the past.

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They've all been really interesting.

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So hoping to get more interesting people in the future.

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Definitely.

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Yeah, you mentioned that you might be doing stuff with the Italian team in the future.

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Is that something you're allowed to talk about now?

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I don't think I am.

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I can say that I got in contact with other federations.

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And I know that the Italian Federation is one of those that is in the same mental coaching

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and has their own psychologist that is taking care of the athletes.

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For example, this is something I can share.

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Also because I've been talking with other athletes via Instagram from the Italian team

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and I know that they have.

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It's a lot of difference depending on the federation, really.

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There's a lot of disparity when it comes to wealth.

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And this has a big impact on the team as a whole.

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Yeah, do you know which federations have dedicated climbing psychologists, if any?

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As I said, Italy has.

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But Spain doesn't.

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So I'm employed by the single families.

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I know that team Australia doesn't because I know that there have been some teams actually

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crowd sounding or with different concepts.

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So let's say the sports psychologist is one of the last things that they employ.

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They have other priorities rightfully.

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And I do understand.

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I still see it more like as a luxury, like that type of treatment that very top level

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athletes can get unless they ask them for them themselves.

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And it's in that uptake of getting the super high level, getting everything as top quality,

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top as possible, which is usually not how federations work in climbing.

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A lot of times they just try to go with what they have.

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And asking for more funds is not always easy and so on.

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Yeah, definitely.

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A lot of federations are struggling with having the amount of money that they need to pay

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everyone that the athletes want and paying for their athletes to go to competitions.

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Italy has this, the organization of getting them into the police.

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So this is how athletes can get a living basically.

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But not all of them get inside the police.

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They need to achieve some big trophies and stuff.

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So it's not like the whole team is in the police.

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So for example, Laura Rogora and Stefano Ghisolfi are.

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Ludovico Fossali, I believe so too.

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What I need to check.

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Yeah, that's good for them.

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I'm sure having a regular income makes a huge difference just psychologically as well, not

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having to worry about that.

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But yeah, it's a lot of stuff, a lot that has to be discovered and that I hopefully

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will know more about.

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I know about very small areas so far.

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And definitely the competition setting is one of my favorites.

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Yeah.

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And I think we'll get back to that in a little bit.

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But first of all, let's figure out how you got here to begin with.

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So can you tell us a bit about your background and how it relates to climbing and psychology?

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Yes.

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So I am a psychologist.

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I studied flight experimental psychological sciences.

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And after that, I moved to Sweden to study decision making, human decision making, because

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that was my main interest.

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But at the same time, as soon as I moved, I discovered there was a climbing gym really

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close by my apartment.

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And I started climbing and I got deep into it very, very fast.

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So I think less than a month after, I started climbing four to five times a week.

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Oh, that's a lot.

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When I get obsessed, the obsessions go deep, I have to say.

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So I started climbing and my climbing gym is a club.

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So it's not a commercial gym.

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It's very, very cheap.

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Let's say around $10 a month.

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It's super cheap.

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That also means that we don't have professional route setters.

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And everyone is allowed to route set during route setting weekends, which are approximately

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four times a year.

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And so I got more and more into the community and people were teaching me how to climb.

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We didn't have any course specifically for adults.

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We have for juniors, for kids, but not for adults.

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So you really learn with the community and you learn to bond with the club itself.

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So within six months from starting climbing, I started route setting.

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And then I got into the organization.

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So the following year was already in the board.

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So in making the decisions on how to improve the club, how to make it more safe, how to

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make it more fun.

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So I worked on, for example, adding a slab wall because we didn't have any.

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And it's very small.

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It's very, very small, but it allows a lot of interaction.

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And going forward, I started getting more and more involved with the club and getting

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to know more and more people and noticing that psychology is something that was quite

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missing in the climbing community and in the climbing scene.

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Despite being very prevalent.

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So a lot of people were talking about fear of falling, no systematic ways of talking

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about fear of falling.

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And especially when it goes outside of the fear of falling, everything is just regarded

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as mental game.

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And when you regard such complex processes with just one name, you can go into the details

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of it.

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You can really study it.

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You can understand how to change it actively, unless going by trial and error.

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And still with very little details.

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So I decided to start one year after starting climbing, I decided to start my YouTube channel

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in which I talk about sports psychology applied to climbing.

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And then I got a lot of people contacting me for starting to make coaching.

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And then I set up my own mental coaching service with other two amazing mental coaches.

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And so now I am officially owner, co-founder of Climb and Flow, where I just do a lot of

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different types of coaching from the average climber.

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A lot of fear of falling, fear of judgment, a lot of fears, I have to say.

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But also I started working with athletes because I got in contact with some families, most

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of them from Spain, and the word spread.

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So I started working with more and more elite athletes.

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And then I got the privilege, I have to say, to become Jela Masi-Martin mental coach.

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She's definitely the flagship of my athlete.

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It's impossible to say anything different.

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And so the idea is to put the athletes in the best mindset possible for competition.

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So I've been following them and giving them help and support.

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So for example, one of my athletes got injured.

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We had to help her follow her schedule for the rehab and not to have completely mood

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swings and to make her lose motivation for training despite she noticed that her strength

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was definitely lower than before.

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And she had an important competition that she really wanted to go to.

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So a lot of different types of coaching, even with elite climbers.

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But in most cases, it's about managing pressure in high demand and high anxiety situation.

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Okay.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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We'll get into probably the differences between general coaching versus elite athlete competition

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coaching a bit later on.

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But first, I wanted to just talk a little bit about your YouTube channel because that's

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how I found you.

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You do a lot of videos about the psychology behind different pro climbers that people

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are familiar with.

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What World Cup climber do you find the most psychologically interesting?

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Oh, this is a big question.

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Since we have so many different athletes and so many different mindsets, I don't know if

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I can pinpoint one or another.

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But if I have to think about it actively, so if I want to think about one mindset that

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I would like more people to have and that will help a lot of people to improve their

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relationship with themselves and with climbing, I would say Stefano Ghisolfi.

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And I have done a video on Stefano Ghisolfi called Under the Mindset Analysis Series.

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It's called Self-Compassion.

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Because whenever I listen to him talk, and to a certain degree, I could also listen to

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him in Italian since I'm Italian as well.

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So I could get a bit more information, still don't know him directly in person I'm working

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on.

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And then, yeah, I'm getting into contact with more and more professional climbers.

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So I'll be doing more of these mindset analysis videos by asking them directly and trying

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to figure out, yes, instead of trying to extrapolate from information elsewhere.

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But Stefano has this very self-compassion attitude towards himself, towards mistakes,

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towards improving that really is fueling his desire for improvement, for climbing, from

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enjoying the roots of his climbing indoors or outdoors.

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And it's something that really can be trained, can be learned.

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And a lot of people misunderstand because of the self-development industry, the role

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of self-compassion compared to self-discipline.

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So a lot of people see self-compassion as a way of being self-indulgent with oneself.

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And use a lot of very tough self-talk to try to go through difficult times.

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And this, in the long run, it's detrimental for several reasons.

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First of all, unless there are some specific cases in which the person has been developing

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in a very tough environment, has been succeeding in surviving and not quitting, then maybe

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self-discipline could still work without too many detrimental effects.

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But we know from the research that people that are more self-compassion are able to

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keep internal, intrinsic motivation for a longer period of time.

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They can get through setbacks more easily and they have a higher level of quality of

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their lives and of enjoyment of their activity as well.

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So we both know from a research point of view, but we also know from psychotherapy.

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So we know that from the clinical area, self-compassion is a very important aspect to improve quality

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of lives and how you basically see yourself when you are in the process.

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So when you put together these two types of evidence, you can learn to see how self-compassion

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can be used in specific settings, such as managing mistakes in sport.

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Not that there is no research in sport, there it is.

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A lot of research in self-compassion in sport as well.

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But all the information basically is going towards that direction.

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Yeah, I think for me personally, I probably struggle with that quite a bit.

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Yeah, just like when you were talking about it, it sounded a lot like me to have not much

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self-compassion.

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But I guess the way I justified it was if I tell myself that I suck, then I'll want

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to work harder to do better.

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And if I tell myself that I'm doing well, then I'll get complacent and just be like,

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well, I'm already doing well, so there's not really a need to try harder.

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So I guess in a way that can be kind of bad, but that's just what I'm thinking.

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So the thing is that even when you tell yourself, if you are the type of person to tell yourself

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that you suck and you still get motivated, then there is a part of yourself that is aware

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of the fact that, for example, you're able to improve and learn if you want to.

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And the problem really is when you get the lows of motivation.

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So one thing is saying like, I suck at this move.

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Another thing is saying, I suck.

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So refer to yourself, maybe yourself as a client, yourself as a person, has different

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kinds of implications, definitely.

00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:53,560
And there is sometimes this narrative that if you're satisfied with what you have, you

00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,880
might not want to keep going further.

00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,840
You know, you don't have as much desire to keep on going.

00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:08,760
And if we look at the different types of motivation that people have, usually it's not the fear

00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:17,920
of sucking, for example, that drives a lot of people, it's the sense of accomplishment,

00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,960
doing better and being capable of what you're doing and so on.

00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:28,440
And then we know for sure from the research in strength training that the more you get

00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:33,880
experienced in one type of activity, the harder it will be to get to a certain level and to

00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:34,880
improve.

00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,440
You know, we call it the plateau, but it's much more complex than this, but it is in

00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,980
the long scale, how it looks like and how it feels like for a lot of people.

00:19:44,980 --> 00:19:51,600
So it's a lot about the amount of effort they have to put into it to reach the next

00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,720
marginal gain.

00:19:53,720 --> 00:20:01,120
So the effort that you need to put into it becomes greater and greater.

00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:08,640
And then if the desire, the motivation that you want to put into it is driven by fear,

00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,920
it's much easier to give up because you have already achieved a lot, let's say.

00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:20,760
You might have some basis, maybe say, okay, I suck at comp style moves, but I'm super,

00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,440
super strong outdoors.

00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,160
And I can keep on working on that, maintaining that, seeing where is my limit and not wanting

00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,320
to invest in the things that are threatening you, let's say.

00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,960
Despite the types of motivation that are going towards trying to achieve your goals.

00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:46,920
So if you're not afraid of sucking, you have more motivation to keep on trying to go for

00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:54,240
improving your weaknesses of something that doesn't feel as, let's say, feasible or as

00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,520
rewarding right away.

00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:04,220
So those people are more prone to persevering even when the, let's say, the stake comes

00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:07,440
later in time compared to the reward at the moment.

00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,120
Because the reward at the moment is what is actually trying to overcome the fear of sucking

00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:13,400
in that specific thing.

00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,040
Well, thanks for helping me with that.

00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:23,600
Yeah, let's move on to the Youth World Championships, which you were just at in Korea that we were

00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,640
talking about.

00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:33,500
So yeah, let's talk about first, what group of athletes are you currently coaching?

00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:38,520
So I'm currently coaching one athlete that is 12.

00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,880
And we started working together when she was 11, so she's still not in the IFSC circuit.

00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,560
And then I have some athletes that are 15.

00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,640
They all come from the same group.

00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,560
And the one that I've been going to the World Championships with is Jayla Masia-Martin,

00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,960
who is a climber that you will hear a lot more in the future.

00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,840
And I'm saying this not just because she is my athlete, and of course she is special in

00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,040
my eyes, but she is outstanding.

00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:17,360
She is the European champion and won the championships in both LEAD and Boulder.

00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:25,640
So not only the championships, but the overall top, let's say, in both cases.

00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:32,400
And also in the World Championships, she got two medals in the two disciplines that she

00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400
competed in.

00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,940
So she is definitely outstanding.

00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:38,760
She was also the only one from Europe on the podium.

00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,760
Oh, wow.

00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:47,360
Japan went very, very hard at the Youth World Championships.

00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:53,400
And it might be also because they're more familiar with the weather conditions, because

00:22:53,400 --> 00:23:00,640
every European got completely smashed by the weather conditions because it was incredibly,

00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,680
incredibly humid and hot.

00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:09,000
And the facilities were, I would say, pretty bad.

00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:15,080
So for example, when they had to warm up for boulders, the bouldering area was extremely

00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,080
small.

00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,120
The route setting was very, very easy.

00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,480
There was a spray wall that was made only by jugs.

00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,480
What?

00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:23,480
Wow.

00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,000
There were no hangboard.

00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,860
It was very, very weird.

00:23:28,860 --> 00:23:34,800
They all got a bit thrown off by this, and mentally it was very hard, I would say, for

00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,520
everyone because they didn't have a lot to work on.

00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,560
Everyone was trying to create boulders with boulders that were not set for that intention.

00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,760
And the only holes that were hard enough were always the same.

00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,960
So everyone was almost like in line or trying to push each other out of the walls to warm

00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:56,960
up.

00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,520
Oh, that's stressful.

00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,040
It was very, very stressful.

00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,560
And you could feel it in the air really, especially the first day when people went around the

00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:13,120
area and discovered that there was one small campus board that was not a standard campus

00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,520
board and it was on vertical.

00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,800
And the rung was pretty big too.

00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,480
There was no space to move the feet underneath.

00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,260
It was very weird.

00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:30,400
So very, very difficult conditions, I have to say.

00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:37,160
And then when they were climbing outdoors, because the comp settings were outdoors, the

00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,520
sun was hitting.

00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,360
Sometimes it was raining a bit because the high level of humidity does this, and everyone

00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,160
was slipping all the time.

00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:54,400
And probably the Japanese team was more used to this compared to other countries.

00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,000
Korea also did very well.

00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,720
Hometown advantage.

00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,720
Yes.

00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,680
But the Japanese team was a striking one.

00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,080
You could see results in settings which you would never guess.

00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,480
For example, speed climbing.

00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:17,720
And seeing the goal in speed climbing by a female Japanese girl, athlete, it was pretty

00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,600
striking to me.

00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,080
So it was definitely conditions that played a role.

00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,800
And then maybe definitely the Japanese team has an edge in training.

00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,000
It still has to be discovered.

00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000
Right.

00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,960
What are their secrets?

00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,520
But overall, the championships went really, really well.

00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,640
The setting was very interesting.

00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,960
Sometimes weird, I have to say.

00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:58,800
Very hard to read holders and routes, which in a certain sense wanted to push for decision

00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,120
making, I would say.

00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:08,760
Route-reading ability rather than strength and technique sometimes.

00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,440
Because a lot of, for example, the females final was a disaster for half participants.

00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,360
Probably half of the girls were crying when they finished.

00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,240
The route was incredibly hard to read.

00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,400
And a lot of people got stuck.

00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,640
Many mistakes and very difficult type of climbing, I have to say.

00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,480
The boulder was pretty much the same, not as dramatic, I have to say.

00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,400
But you could see that the athletes were all struggling trying to understand which was

00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,820
the best, the easiest beta.

00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:46,960
So slashes were less prevalent.

00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:47,960
Sometimes there were.

00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,080
There was a run in which J.L.A. did all the boulders flash.

00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,800
But for example, not in finals.

00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:57,800
This wasn't the case.

00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,680
Or for the finals, the boulders were especially tricky to read.

00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
And so how does decision making kind of connect with it?

00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,240
Is it just as simple as making a decision and sticking to it and committing?

00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,680
Or is there more to it?

00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,680
Definitely a lot more.

00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,640
And I have to say, well, I have a professional deformation in this term.

00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,640
But I work a lot with cognitive biases in decision making.

00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:31,720
So the types of biases that impact our way of processing information or applying or sticking

00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:40,000
to decision, actually sticking to decision is one of the biases that we study so much.

00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,360
And for example, one is the sound cost fallacy.

00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:50,160
So maybe some of the audience, someone from the Austin Tops for Me or Sound Costs are

00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,960
the costs that already occurred in a decision.

00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,120
And they shouldn't influence future decision.

00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:02,840
So the decision should be an evaluation of pros and cons in the different outcomes and

00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:09,400
depending on the probabilities of the outcomes and whether you invested resources.

00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,920
It doesn't even need to be money.

00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:17,760
It could be time, it could be energy, it could be training, it could be anything really.

00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,640
Really shouldn't influence a future decision.

00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,880
And this is also called the Concord fallacy because the Concord was a project for a super

00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:33,560
fast jet that was supposed to make, yes, traveling super fast across the world.

00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:40,080
And I think there were actually two governments that funded this project with, I don't remember

00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,840
how much money, but a lot of money.

00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,400
And the problem was that as soon as the project started, they understood that it was going

00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,240
to fail.

00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,880
But since they invested this amount of money, they kept on investing it.

00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,760
Let's see if there's something that we can do about it since we put so much money into

00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:04,560
it and if they continued then it failed eventually as it was predicted.

00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,760
But this can be used for any aspect of our lives.

00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,560
It could be used for, for example, relationships.

00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:18,480
Maybe you invested a lot of time in one relationship and you don't want to get out of it or you

00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,280
invested your time in a university course that you don't really like, that you know

00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,520
you've done a couple of exams, you don't want to throw all that effort away.

00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:32,840
When it comes to climbing, it can really go from training.

00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,340
So for example, with training, we have to say that we see the opposite.

00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:42,920
So people are not sticking to a specific type of training plan.

00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,760
But sometimes there is something like if it works, don't change it.

00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:56,080
So you've seen something that has been working for a very long time, for example, just climbing.

00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,400
And you keep on climbing.

00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,360
So like, I mean, this I've been improving so much with just climbing.

00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,920
This should work for the future as well.

00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,880
And this is a kind of a different bias.

00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:23,800
You really can have it in any type of investment that you have for your, both in your like

00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,480
training and the competition setting.

00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:32,480
In a sign cost fallacy is usually not, you can see it, for example, in a boulder.

00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,160
So you do a move, you do a specific kind of beta, and you see improvement.

00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,160
And you see this could work and you don't take the time to try something else because

00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,600
you see there is something that is working, something that is improving and you don't

00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,080
want to make these efforts to waste.

00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,600
So you want to make this beta work.

00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,240
Well there might be something easier that can work.

00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,320
I've seen it in sound comps.

00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,640
Fortunately, this is not something that JLA showed during the competition, but it's something

00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,760
that can happen.

00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:15,280
One bias that I see much more frequently than sound cost bias is the opportunity cost neglect.

00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:22,540
And it's the basic of opportunity cost neglect is that all resources are finite.

00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:28,440
So in any decision there is an opportunity cost, which is the cost of the option that

00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,560
is not chosen.

00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,560
So what does it mean?

00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,800
It means that with any choice you make, you're forgoing something else.

00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,080
And if you don't pay attention to the fact that you are basically giving up something

00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,680
else with this choice, you incur into opportunity cost neglect.

00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,280
And I've seen it many times.

00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:56,400
I've actually seen it sometimes in JLA, so we worked on it as well.

00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,540
And it's something that I'm actually working on as a PhD student.

00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:08,280
So I've worked on opportunity cost neglect a lot throughout different contexts and now

00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,600
I'm applying it to climbing as well, to need climbing.

00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,680
But you can see this, this is a general example.

00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:24,320
This is not the case of JLA, but consider for example, when you are bouldering or lead

00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280
climbing and you have to do several sessions.

00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,840
So for example, when it comes to lead climbing, you have semi-finals and finals are on the

00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,920
same day, which means that you will be doing a lot of effort.

00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,400
You will be losing a lot of skin, especially if you're doing bouldering.

00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,800
You're going to get pumped.

00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,240
And if you can make a precise estimate of how is your performance, especially compared

00:32:49,240 --> 00:33:00,240
to the other competitors, you need to really make strategic decisions about whether your

00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:06,280
effort or whether you're giving up with the next choice and the next try and the effort

00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,300
that you're going to put in the next round is going to be worth.

00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:14,960
So for example, you see that there is a boulder is specifically hard.

00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120
You've got the zone, is the last boulder.

00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:27,080
And now you can see from the information that is going around from the crowd, you can get

00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:33,120
an idea whether you are final or not, especially if you're in the top position.

00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,040
Then it might be worth, especially if for example, it's a sloper move with mega jump

00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,480
where you can lose a lot of skin, you can open flat.

00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:47,320
Then, you know, these kinds of elements can impact a lot, the final.

00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:57,320
And so you might be willing to not push to the very last bit of effort and allocate it

00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,320
to the finals.

00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:05,320
That if you don't, you're taking it away from times for the final.

00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:11,040
But what I notice is that a lot of time athletes are actually trying to do their actual best

00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,880
in semifinals as well.

00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,080
And this has some impacts, for example, in their motivation.

00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:25,600
So if they end up first in semifinal, they feel more confident that they can win in finals

00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,600
as well.

00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,760
But also from the data that I have collected, this is not the case.

00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,960
Oh, really?

00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,880
I've got the data from World Cups and Championships.

00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,240
I don't remember how many years, but actually between the three podium positions, there

00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:47,960
is no difference in the predicted outcome of who's going to win.

00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:53,240
So this is something that I find really interesting that I talk about a lot with my athletes.

00:34:53,240 --> 00:35:02,560
So for example, Jayla had issues with her confidence when she's not first in semifinals.

00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:10,320
We worked a lot in trying to get her this confidence back and really go for her best

00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,800
in finals with the confidence that she can go there to win.

00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,480
Because this is what she has.

00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,080
We know that she wants to go there and take first place.

00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,960
Second place is a failure for her.

00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,960
This is the kind of mentality that she has, and that is fine.

00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,120
Something that we have to manage, but it's not a problem itself.

00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,840
And it's something that really allows her to do her best.

00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,360
So it's not something that is pulling her down.

00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,000
So for example, self-sabotaging.

00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440
She doesn't have this type of behavior.

00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,060
So for her, this is the aim, her goal.

00:35:44,060 --> 00:35:49,680
But sometimes she would want to do her best and try to be first even in semifinals when

00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,760
it's not necessary.

00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:00,080
We don't actually see this much of a problem because Jayla, we have to say, has a good

00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,000
edge on the other participants.

00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,880
So it doesn't really matter as much.

00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,600
But I've seen from other professional climbers.

00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,160
So for example, I remember there was an interview for Jessica Pils, the qualified second at

00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,600
the European Championships, I believe.

00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,280
And they asked her how she felt.

00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,280
She said that she was disappointed because she couldn't give her best effort.

00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:32,320
And in my mind, when you qualify second for finals, it's like you should be screaming

00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,120
out of joy that you didn't even have to put everything you had into that situation.

00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:43,360
And you get this extra edge compared to the other participants because you are more fresh.

00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,960
You are not as pumped.

00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:52,920
And especially if it's like a foot slip, it's something like it doesn't impact your skin

00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,880
or your pump as much.

00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,920
But in her mind, this wasn't the case because that was an indication of, for example, lack

00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:09,120
of focus or something that she wouldn't feel as confident for the finals as well.

00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,720
Jessica Pils, Jessie, is one of the most accomplished competition climbers as well.

00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:19,280
So we know that she can do very, very well in competitions.

00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:25,120
And it shouldn't be the result of semifinals, which is impacted by so many factors to influence

00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,280
or determine whether she feels confident for the finals or not.

00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,080
You know what I mean?

00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,800
And I don't see this mentality in competition climbers as much.

00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,400
Sometimes we see boulders that say, okay, I'm good with my performance.

00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,400
I can go to the next step, which is a sign that people take into consideration opportunity

00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,400
costs.

00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,760
I remember Yania at the Olympics with the last boulder.

00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,320
She flashed the first two and the third one, she didn't top it.

00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,840
And she did two tries, I believe, more than one for sure.

00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,560
So she showed that she wanted to send the last boulder as well.

00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,840
But then she had to do lead climbing afterwards.

00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:18,220
So she did try more than once, despite she was already first and she knew she was already

00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:27,280
first the first two boulders, even without coming out on the mat.

00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,320
I can understand the pride in wanting to top all the boulders at the Olympics.

00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:32,320
Absolutely fine.

00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,000
But after a while she said, I'm stopping here.

00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,240
I'm going to do lead so that I can go take my goal there too.

00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,240
Yeah.

00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:45,880
I actually don't remember that, but I feel like she usually just wants to climb as much

00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,880
as she can.

00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,880
Yeah.

00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,720
But when you have a different session afterwards, the whole process of going through qualifications

00:38:54,720 --> 00:39:01,080
and finals and finals in very small period of time is really a lot about strategic thinking.

00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,960
And Yania has the edge by the fact that she can flash everything basically.

00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,760
So the amount of effort that she has to put compared to other participants is much less.

00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:12,760
She's much more fresh.

00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,080
She has more skin and so on.

00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:24,000
But at the same time, it's still a whole other process of going through the lead Olympics.

00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,480
So it made sense that she stopped after a while.

00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,040
Please excuse this brief intermission, but I would just like to take some time and remind

00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,880
you that if you are enjoying this podcast, please follow and rate it on your preferred

00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:40,880
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00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,040
If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to subscribe and hit the like button.

00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,960
Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests

00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,440
on back to the show.

00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,340
I guess talking about where athletes are at psychologically, what are some of the differences

00:39:58,340 --> 00:40:03,800
you see between like youth climbers and like adult climbers?

00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,840
Either in the competition scene or just in general.

00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:07,840
Okay.

00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,200
So definitely with youth climbers, we have many more difficulties with managing emotions

00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,000
because this is the age where the prefrontal cortex is developing.

00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:25,960
So it's how you manage not only your emotion, but how you program your own rewards throughout

00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:26,960
time.

00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,840
So for example, kids and adolescents require rewards more often compared to adults.

00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Adults can sustain frustration for a longer period of time.

00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,880
They can sustain attention for a longer period of time and so on.

00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:47,400
So when it comes to working with the adolescents, it's a lot about managing the emotion.

00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,920
So I do a lot of emotion regulation kind of mental training.

00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:58,200
While with the adults, it's usually much more about beliefs about themselves, which are

00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,880
more strong and eradicated in the idea of who the people are, the person is.

00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,480
So for example, I'm a coward, something I hear a lot when I do fear of falling training

00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,120
with people.

00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,920
And it's a judgment.

00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:21,800
It's a judgment and a statement that is generalized to the whole being.

00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,120
It's not just like I'm a coward when it comes to this specific situation.

00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,240
I'm a coward, period.

00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:30,240
That's who I am.

00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,160
This is how I work.

00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,980
And if we want to overcome this, we have to work on how you see yourself.

00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:45,760
So we have to start by making a bit of an analysis of the different types of fear the

00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,940
person has because when it comes to...

00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:51,840
I'm talking now about fear of falling, but it can be applied to anything a lot of people

00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,840
are afraid of.

00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:59,240
For example, climbing in front of people and especially when it comes to significant others.

00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,960
But let's talk about fear of falling, for example.

00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:03,960
It's much easier.

00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:11,040
A lot of people say that they are afraid of falling, but fear of falling can really have

00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,040
so many different faces and people don't realize.

00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,380
So when they say, I'm afraid of falling, say, okay, but what are you afraid of?

00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:25,320
And then they start thinking about it and they say, okay, but then are you afraid of

00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,760
be laying on top rope, for example?

00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,320
And they say, no.

00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,020
And then the other person that is in the course with me is like, I am actually afraid of be

00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:38,600
laying, I'm afraid of killing my friend.

00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:45,240
And I mean, when it comes to top roping, we know that as long as there is safety check

00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:52,880
and everything is managed as it's supposed to be, with the body check and everything,

00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,160
then the chances of this happening are very, very low.

00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,020
When it comes to lead climbing, be laying is not as straightforward.

00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:06,680
So there are a lot of people that are actually anxious and afraid of lead be laying.

00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:13,520
So this is another type of fear of falling that I work with a lot.

00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,320
And then there are some people that are afraid not really of falling, but of losing control.

00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,440
So they can do program falling, but not when they're not really aware of what are the consequences

00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,060
or what could happen if you fall in a weird position and how to manage a situation which

00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:30,060
are actually dangerous.

00:43:30,060 --> 00:43:34,280
And we know they are, for example, when you have the foot that is behind the rope and

00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,620
can get entangled and you can fall up backwards.

00:43:37,620 --> 00:43:43,840
So there are so many different types of fear and even just making them realize that there

00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,480
are so many different types and they don't have all of them is already something that

00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,840
is doing something for them.

00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:57,720
Of course, I'm not like I'm putting it into that perspective, but the perspective is that

00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:59,000
you're helping each other.

00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:04,640
So I do these courses with like six, eight people at the time and everyone has different

00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,240
kind of fears.

00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:11,080
And when they have to work helping not only like themselves because they have to help

00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,920
themselves so that they can improve with their sensations and their fears, they also have

00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,880
to help the other person.

00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,440
And the other person has different fears from what you have.

00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,360
And it actually, when you see that you can help someone else as well, it really gives

00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:34,320
you a different perspective about how fear of falling feels.

00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,960
And when you see that there are some people that are terrified just by sitting on the

00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:45,440
harness when they're on top rope and there are plenty of these people, we don't see them

00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,920
as much because they just don't climb.

00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,640
They just boulder.

00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,880
So this is one of the missions that I have, right?

00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:59,440
So try to bring more people rope climbing because there is a lot of people that just

00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,460
don't start because they can't overcome the fear or it's like too much of an effort for

00:45:03,460 --> 00:45:09,360
them to actually enjoy the climbing.

00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:15,380
And then the person that says, yes, I'm a super big coward is there doing the proper

00:45:15,380 --> 00:45:24,260
falls with some slack and going onto the overhang that is scaring them as much and so much.

00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:27,880
So it really puts things into different perspective.

00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,500
You can see the progression not only yours but of other people.

00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:38,800
So it's impacting this idea that this is who I am and it's unchangeable and gives them

00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,000
confidence by the fact that they can change the way they feel and they can change the

00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,960
way they perceive the different threats and that they can enjoy the climbing more.

00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,560
Because this is one of the biggest issues with fear of falling.

00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:57,460
Of course, some people would say to me it's very, very frustrating that I'm not able to

00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:59,000
climb at my max grade.

00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,480
For example, when you compare the climbing to top roping.

00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:09,440
But a lot, a lot of people just say like, I don't do it because I don't like it because

00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:16,840
I'm so scared and I feel so overwhelmed or I feel so incompetent when I do it that I

00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,700
just don't enjoy what I'm doing even if I'm doing something that is very easy for my level

00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:25,880
of expertise.

00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:32,800
So really is different when it comes to adults compared to adolescents.

00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,240
Adolescents are also much more reckless.

00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,520
No fear of falling.

00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:45,960
I had some youth, not an elite climber that has fear of falling.

00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,980
But it really goes with the background that they have.

00:46:48,980 --> 00:46:57,720
So for example, if they come from an environment that is overprotective, then no room to experimentation

00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,640
and to some degrees of risk is allowed.

00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:07,180
And then they learn to be very afraid, especially if the parents are very afraid themselves.

00:47:07,180 --> 00:47:11,720
So basically they learn this is a coping mechanism to protect themselves.

00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:13,620
And then, yeah.

00:47:13,620 --> 00:47:20,120
I mean, I would also think that getting injured would really affect the fear of falling as

00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,120
well.

00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,120
Exactly.

00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,240
I actually have a lot of adults that are afraid of fear of falling because of injuries.

00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:30,120
I fortunately have youth climbers that are afraid.

00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:37,440
I had one athlete that got a bit more scared when she was climbing on lead.

00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,640
And then there was like a very big pyramid that was sticking out.

00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,440
And so she hit it with a fall.

00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,120
But nothing bad happened.

00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,960
She got a bit self-conscious about the consequences of the fall.

00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:55,120
So for a while she didn't commit as much, but then she overcame it quickly.

00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,800
Usually injuries are a big issue when it comes to your falling with adults.

00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,560
And also because they have to consider whether it's worth going back into it, especially

00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:12,200
if the injury is very severe or happens multiple times, because unfortunately I've seen it

00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,080
happening multiple times for the same person.

00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,200
Oh gosh.

00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,720
Which can be a lot to think about really.

00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:29,600
Because there are some situations and some places which are more dangerous than others.

00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:37,240
I have to say that when I compare the things that I see happening in Sweden compared to

00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:43,920
my Italian clients, because most of my clients are from Italy or from Sweden, because I live

00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,560
in Sweden, but I can also do coaching online with Italians because I'm Italian.

00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,240
And then I can do it in English with all the other countries.

00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:55,100
That's why I also have contact with Spain and so on.

00:48:55,100 --> 00:49:01,520
But when it comes to fear of falling, most of my clients are from Italy and from Sweden.

00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,520
And in Sweden, especially when it comes to indoor climbing, we have very rigid standards.

00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,120
So you cannot climb unless you have the green card, which is something that you get after

00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:17,680
following two days course and doing an exam that is both theoretical and practical.

00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,720
And they still always show the green card or the red card.

00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,880
Green card is for top roping and red card is for lead climbing.

00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,560
It should always be on your harness.

00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:33,560
And if you are seen doing it systematically, things are not conformed to what you're taught,

00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,360
then they can actually revoke it.

00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,480
And say, I'm not letting you from doing this climbing here.

00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,120
And you're giving a bad example for someone else as well.

00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:52,240
So for us, at least what I've seen here in Sweden, we have this very high standards.

00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:58,120
And if you ask Swedes, they wouldn't say that they are high, but compared to other countries,

00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:04,480
and I can talk about Italy, I can talk about Spain, but the standards there is lower.

00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,040
So you don't have any systematic way of doing the courses.

00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:14,960
I don't really know how it is in the rest of the world, but it's like, yeah, I can check

00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,640
how you belay and then I give you something that tells you you can do the belaying.

00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:25,760
There is much less attention to details or how to do dynamic belaying, how to prevent

00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,040
certain types of injuries, how to prevent not falling upside down and all of these kinds

00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,120
of things.

00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:38,260
Or as simple as holding on the brake strand of the rope when you're with the grigri.

00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:46,840
So it really is a problem to climb in certain environments in which rules are not enforced

00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,720
or not, let's say, embraced as much.

00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:58,320
And this can raise a lot of issues with trusted people.

00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:04,040
So is there more fear in Sweden where it's very strict or in other countries?

00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,840
I would say Sweden is as much as other countries, but the fact is that when you have less safety

00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:17,800
in some places, like we always talk about the Mediterranean countries where we're very

00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,280
used to belaying while smoking or looking at the phone.

00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,280
Okay.

00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,680
I've never seen that, but wow.

00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:32,840
And it's very famous, it's called Mediterranean belaying, unfortunately.

00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,640
And it happens very often.

00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:41,640
And when this is linked with injuries, like this would obviously lead towards more injuries.

00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,840
So injuries can happen everywhere, but we still have to try to mitigate the risk as

00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,220
much as possible.

00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:53,480
And so when you see as many injuries happening and the people get injured, then they get,

00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,560
of course, more scared.

00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:04,000
And then there is all the trust with the belaying relationship that it's not really, they say,

00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,920
investigated as much.

00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:12,560
And you need to teach the person to look for someone who is reliable.

00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:18,480
And so it's not as easy really when it comes to an environment that is not as protected

00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,320
as, for example, in Spain.

00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:25,960
And everyone can, of course, can do whatever they want outdoors, but it's still something

00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,280
that we need to think about because it's a dangerous sport.

00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,920
And you know this and we need to...

00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,640
I see injuries in my gym as well, of course.

00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:41,200
I'm responsible for seeing injuries basically everywhere, but most of them are in the boulder

00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:46,720
area, not while doing rope climbing.

00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,120
And we were trying to do as much as we can to prevent those.

00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,000
And we can still do more, but it's definitely a different situation also because in lead

00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,920
climbing you have more severe injuries.

00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:09,320
I mean, I have one athlete, one client that after an injury couldn't walk for a while

00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,200
and that was his second injury.

00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:19,520
So there were very severe accidents, bones that were broken and people risking their

00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,520
lives lately.

00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:21,520
Yeah.

00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,680
How do you come back from something like that?

00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,440
First of all, you need to actually ask yourself if you want to come back.

00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:36,120
And for the person in question, climbing is so important for his life that probably climbing,

00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:41,680
I'm still not aware if he decided to go back, but we talked about it and he was positive

00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,960
to the idea of going back into climbing because climbing is something that literally saved

00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,900
his life.

00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:57,320
So I believe the motivation there is enough, but there are some times in which the risk

00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,440
is not worth the candles.

00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,240
It's what we say in Italian.

00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:05,200
I don't know if this expression exists in English or not.

00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,880
We actually say the game is not worth the candles, but because at the time we were supposed

00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:18,000
to play without lights and the candles were expensive.

00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,000
Doesn't matter.

00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:26,360
But really when it comes to overcoming your fears, there is always motivation that needs

00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,280
to be assessed before.

00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,720
So I know some people that say like, I'm afraid of falling on lead.

00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:33,720
Like, okay.

00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:35,760
Do you want to overcome it?

00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,200
Like yes and no.

00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,200
Okay.

00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,200
Why yes?

00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,200
Why no?

00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:47,720
Yes, because otherwise I feel like a failure as a climber, but no, because I mean, I am

00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:54,160
a trad climber and I feel like I can enjoy my trad climbing even if I do easy climbing

00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,480
and what is really important for me in climbing is the community, being outdoors, being in

00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,200
the nature, being with friends and having fun.

00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:08,440
So in that case, I don't feel the need of improving my fear of falling.

00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:15,640
And so there you see that in those cases, like is it really worth it going through the

00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:23,720
fear of falling training, going through the adrenaline, all the stress of doing, because

00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:30,160
it's stressful for a lot of people to do this kind of training and to do what?

00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:35,680
To give credit to the voice in your head that says that if you don't climb super hard, you're

00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,720
not a good climber.

00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:39,580
You know what I mean?

00:55:39,580 --> 00:55:42,840
So in some cases, I actually advise not to do it.

00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,280
I mean, don't do it.

00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:50,400
If you enjoy what you're doing, if you don't feel like there's a real need of like overcoming

00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,600
this fear, this is not actually limiting your enjoyment or limiting what you want to do.

00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:04,240
And actually in some cases, it's also like a measure of saying I am good enough or not

00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:06,400
and just don't do it.

00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,520
We don't have to like, this is my own perspective, but we don't always have to show ourselves

00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,440
or to others that we are worth of something no matter what.

00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:24,760
It's a bit of a narrative that we hear around, like always try to improve yourself, but can

00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,320
you really try to improve yourself in everything?

00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,320
We don't do it.

00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:34,520
I can tell you from the research that I do that we don't try to improve in everything

00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:41,040
because there is always something that feels so impossible for us that we don't even try.

00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,800
We don't even realize that these things are possible.

00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,520
We don't realize, if it's an okay, study astrophysics.

00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,360
Most people wouldn't even consider it.

00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:57,040
Like oh, but you should improve yourself, but why should I study astrophysics?

00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:05,800
I had interesting physics in my life, but this is just the general example.

00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:11,960
Like do we really have to improve ourselves or it makes sense for us to improve in things

00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,960
that are important for us because it gives us satisfaction, it gives us connection with

00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:21,480
other people, it makes us feel like we are improving and this is important for us and

00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,560
so on.

00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,480
And especially sometimes can be as it's a detrimental.

00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:32,240
So if it's giving power to those voices that say you need to do this climb on lead or it's

00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,240
not valuable or it doesn't count, I've heard so much.

00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,680
Right, yeah, I hear that a lot.

00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,400
I know and then like count for what?

00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:50,560
Am I going to get into the debate whether I sent this 6C in the climbing community or

00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:51,800
not?

00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:56,320
Like you could do with 9C with or without knee pads?

00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:01,400
So this is like we can ask ourselves, does it make it easier, does it make it harder

00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,400
and does it count as like the difficulty of the route because we're talking about very

00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:13,920
high end, the very high end part of our sport.

00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,400
So then it's important, it has a meaning but when it comes to climbing, when it comes to

00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:25,000
doing something that we do for our enjoyment, it's not our job, okay, then it doesn't make

00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,280
as much sense.

00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,800
Professional climbers get their sponsorships by the degree of difficulty of the routes

00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,720
they climb or the boulders that they climb.

00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:35,720
Do we?

00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,960
As normal average climber, I'm not the average climber.

00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:39,960
I wish.

00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:40,960
You wish?

00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:49,840
I mean, it is, you can get recognition for sure but it's a different kind of process

00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:50,840
for sure.

00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,440
So if it's important for you, do it.

00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,380
If it's not that important for you, then consider.

00:58:58,380 --> 00:59:03,080
Maybe you can find something else that is important in your life that is worth putting

00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,680
your effort into.

00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:12,960
For all the people out there who maybe think that mindset or mental coaching is not as

00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:18,120
important for them, what would you say to convince them that it is important and that

00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:22,040
it can make a difference in their climbing?

00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,880
I wouldn't want to convince them actually.

00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:32,320
So for example, it's like going to the physiotherapist when you don't have an injury.

00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:39,800
Okay, the knowledge, the basic knowledge, so to prevent injuries can be very important.

00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,560
For example, physiotherapists can help in this.

00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:50,680
But sometimes when I would say go to do mental coaching when you feel that you want to do

00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,120
it, not because you feel the need to do it.

00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,880
So if you feel like there is a need, there is a need because you have a fear of falling,

00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:07,240
I wouldn't advise mental coaching to everyone just by like just do it.

01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,200
No, because mental coaching has a cost.

01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:15,560
Just like people wouldn't go to a personal trainer.

01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,400
How would you advise everyone to go to do personal training for climbing?

01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:20,400
I wouldn't.

01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,480
Like do it if you want to do it.

01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:23,740
It has a cost.

01:00:23,740 --> 01:00:28,040
You can do something else with those resources if you want to.

01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:31,480
If it's something that is important for you, just absolutely.

01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,720
If it's something that it's worth for you doing, absolutely.

01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:41,280
And there might be much more that you actually expect or imagine into mental training, mental

01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,280
coaching, absolutely.

01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:49,360
But I don't believe like if it was available for everyone for free, like I'm doing on YouTube,

01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,360
I'm trying to share information for free as much as possible, then go check it out.

01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:55,360
Why not?

01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,320
It's something that I'm trying to bring there that is different from what other people are

01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:00,320
doing.

01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,640
And okay, time is not infinite, but it might be.

01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,120
I hope it's some well used time.

01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:17,880
But when it comes to like doing some precise one-to-one coaching or mental coaching courses

01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:23,560
and workshops, it makes sense if it makes sense to you.

01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:29,080
So if you are interested in improving your, for example, root reading and visualization,

01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,080
then do it.

01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,120
It's something that maybe you didn't think about doing systematically, but it can be

01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:35,120
done.

01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:42,720
If you feel like you'd be interested in doing sure-following courses, absolutely.

01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:43,720
Follow the courses.

01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:49,800
If you think that you want to improve your, for example, your self-talk, your emotional

01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:56,760
regulation or how you manage anxiety, and that is meaningful for you.

01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,200
So for example, you have that much anxiety that you can't do what you want.

01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,640
You either perform or enjoy the activity.

01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:05,640
Absolutely.

01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,000
We're here for this.

01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,240
If it makes sense to you.

01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:15,120
If you are a professional athlete and for you it's important to have the top edge even

01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:23,480
in your mindset and in all those mental aspects in climbing for you to actually be able to

01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:25,360
perform at your best.

01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,240
And absolutely do it.

01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,240
If your federation has the money for it or if someone has the money for it, of course.

01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:36,280
Always the same problem of resources, I have to say.

01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:43,880
And when it comes to climbing, I don't see as much the prejudice towards working on your

01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:52,000
mind as much as you would see it in psychotherapy because there is no stigma over diagonals,

01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,880
let's say.

01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,400
This is a big issue in psychotherapy.

01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:03,040
I am no psychotherapist, but this, I have studied psychotherapy, so I know this issue.

01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,040
Maybe there is a bit, I have to say that most of my clients are female.

01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:14,240
So it could be that it's easier for females to reach out for help.

01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:18,240
We know this is usually the case in general.

01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,720
But I don't see as much stereotype and prejudice towards mental training in climbing and in

01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:24,720
other settings.

01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:30,040
And climbing is in general such a supportive community that people are aware of each other's

01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,720
feelings, each other's issues or difficulties with judgment.

01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,680
And they try to be sensitive about it.

01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:45,600
And so I believe it's easier to reach out for mental coaching when it comes to climbing

01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:51,760
compared to mental coaching and other services in other sectors.

01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:56,680
So I'm not very convincing and maybe I'm not really selling my job as well as you would

01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:57,680
want me to do.

01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:06,040
But I really believe that it shouldn't be something that everyone should do it just

01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:07,040
because.

01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:12,000
Make people reactive in what they choose to do and do what they really want.

01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,040
And it really would also yield more results and satisfaction.

01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:21,840
I know we're already almost getting to the end of time here, but I do want to just switch

01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:26,520
gears real quick so we can talk a little bit about your own competition experience.

01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,400
Yes, why not?

01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:34,400
So yeah, not at a world level or anything like that, but you've competed in the Swedish

01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,400
League Championships.

01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:43,760
How do you manage yourself mentally during a competition like that?

01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:44,760
Definitely.

01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:52,000
So the reasons why I went to the League Swedish Championships was pretty different from usual,

01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:53,960
I would say.

01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,640
I had basically two main goals.

01:04:56,640 --> 01:05:01,480
The first one was to enjoy the route setting because I do a lot of route setting.

01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,760
I enjoy route setting and World Cup route setting or like competition style route setting

01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,000
is something that I'm really into.

01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:14,280
And when you see the route set, that is just one wall all for you.

01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,440
It's a different kind of setting.

01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,760
It's just a lot of fun and that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to go.

01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:31,680
But also I went to the Championships just two years after starting climbing.

01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:39,040
My idea is that, okay, I got the red card, I can lead climb indoors, but I am afraid

01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,520
of falling.

01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,560
So I got the red card late because of COVID, the courses were red.

01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:53,240
But anyways, I said, okay, I want to overcome my fear of falling when on-siting.

01:05:53,240 --> 01:06:00,600
So my aim is I want to be able to go somewhere and be able to on-site and do my very best

01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:05,360
when on lead as I am with, well, when I'm on top rope.

01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:14,400
So I decided to put a very ambitious time schedule and to participate to the Championships

01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:19,960
here just eight months after having taken the red card course.

01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:26,760
So I had eight months, I signed up like second person, so I have number two, right after

01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:31,960
opening of the enrollment.

01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:37,960
And I said, okay, I have these eight months to go to this level and get as close as possible

01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:44,040
to the school of trying to be confident while leading on-site.

01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,440
And this was my main goal.

01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,760
And of course, enjoying the whole process, every setting, meeting the people, and like

01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,240
so many amazing people around there.

01:06:55,240 --> 01:07:00,440
In that situation, so it was overall a lot of fun, very interesting.

01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:07,680
Fear was still a factor at the time, so I couldn't give my whole best for the setting,

01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,760
but I definitely was very satisfied.

01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,760
I ended up also getting seventh.

01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:19,500
So it was a very unexpected result to go to finals and so on.

01:07:19,500 --> 01:07:27,920
This also really sparked the discussion about competitiveness in women because there were

01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:33,960
so many more men, still a lot, that many, but so many more men compared to women.

01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:39,600
We were just in eighth, so we already knew that we were all going to go to finals and

01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,200
then right from the start.

01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:50,020
And it really made me think about the reasons why women don't compete in general.

01:07:50,020 --> 01:07:56,400
We know that men have much higher levels of competitiveness, and this is definitely driven

01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,440
by a lot of social pressure.

01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:06,640
So men have a lot less value of demonstrating social status by comparing with each other,

01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:17,360
how females have the, let's say, social learning of community, being close to each other, helping

01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:24,320
each other, and trying to be better than others as a way of being envied much more than a

01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:25,320
card.

01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:32,160
So we know that women tend to not want to compete as much as men.

01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:37,160
There are many reasons why this is the case, and there are studies, and I'm still studying

01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:42,480
about it because it's not my area of expertise, but there are definitely a lot of factors.

01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:48,520
Some parts are, some are definitely also, then we can talk about how big the impact

01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,200
is, but there are genetic differences.

01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:58,040
So for example, hormones, and there is interaction with temperament, which is the set of traits

01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:02,880
that you have when you're basically born, and then you have personality traits, that

01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:08,400
is the development of the interaction between genetic factors, environment, and temperament.

01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:15,880
And then you have social learning that becomes more and more self-driven the older you become

01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,560
because you select your own environment.

01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,560
So it's a very complex process.

01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:25,840
It's very difficult to see which is the biggest share.

01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:34,720
Obviously the social environment is pushing, meant to be more competitive compared to women,

01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:41,160
but it's a bit of a shame to see that females don't want to put themselves into the situation

01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,120
of being seen and get self-conscious.

01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:53,000
We know that women have in general higher levels of anxiety, and especially social anxiety.

01:09:53,000 --> 01:10:00,400
It's a matter of fact we know, so almost like double the frequency.

01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:07,960
So it's something that we have to teach both guys and girls, that it's okay to compete,

01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:13,920
that it's okay that sometimes people will look at you in a fun way, and that sometimes

01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:18,960
you might make a fool of yourself, and that is fine as well.

01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:24,720
For example, I have a lot of guys that I tried to bring to the competition, and girls as

01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:25,720
well.

01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,560
Girls I couldn't find to convince anyone.

01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:32,640
I could convince guys, but some guys are saying, like, I'm not going because it doesn't make

01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:33,640
sense to me.

01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:34,640
Why?

01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,240
Because I don't want to be last.

01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,300
And this is the main issue, right?

01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:40,880
You don't want to be last.

01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:46,800
And I want to ask anyone, like, can you tell me one name of one person that arrived last

01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,440
at the competition that you've seen?

01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:54,200
I guess that's kind of the point, I guess.

01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:59,800
That is also kind of a point, but people are not competing to be, well, of course, if you

01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:04,160
want to go there and win, if this is your goal, you want to be remembered as the one

01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:13,760
that wins, but people are afraid of when it comes to arriving last, and like to be perceived

01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,840
as a fool or someone who's a loser and so on.

01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,160
But like there is always a last one.

01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:25,920
And I guess no one will remember that you got last, so it's fine.

01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:26,920
Fine.

01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:33,840
But sometimes, you know, we try to evaluate ourselves and give ourselves value depending

01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,000
on how we perform.

01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,800
This is one part of the process.

01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,320
We know there is an impact of that.

01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:47,240
If you do better in outcomes, you will feel more confident for the next time.

01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,200
If you do worse, you will feel less confident.

01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:57,360
Yeah, but the problem is sometimes that the fear of failure really can impact even your

01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:01,000
idea of trying.

01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:05,920
And that really impacts your development, impacts your confidence, because you're not

01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:12,440
able to sustain the frustration of failure, and we go back to the topic that we were talking

01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:14,600
about before, right?

01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,240
Do you think that's also the case in other sports where there's also just like less women

01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,000
interested in all competitions?

01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:23,640
Or is it specifically climbing?

01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:32,240
Because I mean, there is a bit more of a gender gap in terms of male climbers and like female

01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:33,520
climbers.

01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:37,240
So I don't have the data for all sports.

01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:40,000
There are definitely differences in different kinds of sports.

01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:47,280
I know, for example, that one of the most balanced sports for gender is CrossFit, where

01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,920
the share of females and males is 50-50.

01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:52,360
Surprising, actually.

01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,240
Very surprising and very interesting.

01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:00,200
But there are, I would say, two factors.

01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:06,000
One is that for male sports, they're usually much more endorsed than for females since

01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:15,960
we're growing up always, because the development of the physical abilities, it's much more

01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,380
rewarded in men compared to women.

01:13:19,380 --> 01:13:26,920
And then when women train, socially speaking, a lot of time it happens for weight management

01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:29,840
rather than for like the development of strength.

01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:36,360
So men tend to go much more into fitness rather than sports, unless they've been growing up

01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:43,560
in a situation like in a culture or in a family that is pushing towards sports instead.

01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:50,880
So typically kids start by doing sports because sports allow them to develop a lot of different

01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:58,160
abilities, coordination and balance, different self-body awareness and a lot of stuff.

01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,880
And of course, it's super healthy.

01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:11,840
But then when they go into competitive settings, competitiveness is also much more rewarded

01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,000
in men, as I said.

01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:22,880
So as I said, it's easier for men to feel some satisfaction from competing while females

01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,200
tend to feel more self-conscious.

01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:30,000
And then when it comes to, as I said, growing up and choosing the activity that you want

01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:37,960
to do, females go into fitness not only because of weight management, body image and so on,

01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:41,960
but also because men do this as well, of course.

01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:46,880
But it's also because there is no element of competition that is directed, like a tension

01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,480
on who is better than the other.

01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:55,160
And a lot of people find a lot of relief into this kind of setting.

01:14:55,160 --> 01:15:00,280
And in a certain sense, it's great that people find their own environment.

01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:06,200
I'm not saying that everyone should be competitive or no one should be competitive.

01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,640
Everyone should be allowed to do what they want.

01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:14,560
But the thing is that when it comes to gender, I would say that there are some pressures

01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:20,760
are hindering the ability to choose, and this is a bit of a shame.

01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:26,720
When it comes to climbing, climbing, I don't have the data.

01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,480
I really don't have the data about how many people are...

01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:33,720
I mean, I know how many females we have in our club and it's much, much less than what

01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:35,880
we have for men.

01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:42,360
I know that in some cases it's a third or less than members.

01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:49,720
And it is also true that it's a sport in which the progression for female at the start is

01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,280
harder than for males.

01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:56,340
So male progression are more faster at the start than females.

01:15:56,340 --> 01:15:59,200
So it can be less rewarding.

01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:07,160
But there are other sports that are rewarding more female abilities, such as balance or

01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:12,800
other types of abilities that might reward more females compared to males.

01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,680
For climbing, I don't really know.

01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,560
There is definitely a difference between bouldering and lead climbing.

01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:24,280
So it's easier to find a share that is higher for lead climbing compared to bouldering because

01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,560
it's less powered than bouldering.

01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:31,280
At the same time, bouldering is more accessible than rope climbing because you don't need

01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:35,360
a partner, you don't need a harness, you don't need a belayer and so on.

01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:40,760
So I would say that the share for females is improving also because weight-changing

01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:46,720
technique, you teach them how to overcome the difficulties with having less pulling

01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,640
ability compared to men.

01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,560
There is also variation, of course, and we always have to talk about it.

01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:06,760
But we know that the female body after puberty has the development for a very strong lower

01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:14,440
body compared to body weight and then the lower parts, lower limbs.

01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:20,200
So actually we know that, for example, females are very strong in...

01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:21,800
Can you share the cat?

01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:22,800
Yeah.

01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,520
Cat is like a straight tension.

01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:34,000
So pulling ability is definitely of higher level for males without training.

01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:39,360
Like if the males and the females pulling ability, the dimension of the muscles in the

01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,400
back are bigger.

01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,720
So it is easier for them to do pull-ups.

01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,520
And if you can do pull-ups, it's definitely easier to campus push-ups.

01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:56,000
And you can, let's say, work without as much technique.

01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:01,640
You can figure it out and get away with it, getting your send and getting your reward.

01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:10,240
While females need to go through more frustration at the start compared to men.

01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:11,240
And then there is reach.

01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:12,920
Let's not forget about it.

01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:19,520
Yeah, and when you're in the competitions and there's so many less women to compete against,

01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,400
I think that happens to me as well.

01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:31,520
And it kind of feels like, oh, well, maybe I placed high, but there were only three other

01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:32,880
people to compete against.

01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,400
So it doesn't feel very legitimate.

01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,680
I think that's an issue as well.

01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:44,840
Yeah, I mean, this is really depending on the type of standards I have for success and

01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:47,600
failure would make you satisfied or not.

01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:53,200
And what is the drive for you to compete?

01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:55,800
I really like competing, for example.

01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:59,680
I used to never compete because it was too much pressure for me.

01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,000
Then I started climbing and I changed as a person.

01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:07,560
And now I really enjoy competing because it really gives me the possibility to focus on

01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:10,720
getting max effort in that setting.

01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:16,800
So for example, I've learned to not go as hard before the competition, not prepare and

01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:21,160
having my trainings for that situation.

01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:25,560
And I like that I have no excuses for not trying my best.

01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,280
That is the moment.

01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:29,760
And this is a feeling that I like a lot.

01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:36,120
And if I am able to try my best, try very hard, I get a lot of satisfaction, independently

01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:39,880
from the result.

01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:45,800
Then it happened to me too that I won the climbing club competition because the strongest

01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:47,240
climber wasn't there.

01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:48,240
She was outdoor climbing.

01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:49,240
Oh great, yeah.

01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:53,320
On a Sunday day, so very few people competed.

01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:58,560
And she is so much stronger than me, super short as well.

01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:04,120
So it's really agility that makes her incredible.

01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:09,440
And I won, I still beat another competitor that is very, very strong.

01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:11,720
Usually he always beats me.

01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:13,820
It was a route that suited me a lot.

01:20:13,820 --> 01:20:15,600
So there are a lot of contingencies.

01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,560
I take this victory.

01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:24,720
I'm happy that I won for the first time the club competition.

01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:29,040
At the same time, does it change really what I think about myself, what I think about myself

01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:30,040
as a climber?

01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:35,080
No, I wouldn't say that I'm stronger than the other girls.

01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:39,440
Neither of them, neither of the ones that I beat in that specific situation, competitions

01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:40,440
are like this.

01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:45,280
And I think that actually when it comes to sport, there is almost nothing that is as

01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:46,280
unfair.

01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:51,400
There are so many factors that go in between.

01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:59,400
Directly being able to control the results and seeing this is the result of your effort

01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,800
or your weaknesses is incredibly hard.

01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:08,720
You need to have a lot of competitions to try to rule out the effects of chance, the

01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:13,080
effects of people getting injured.

01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:20,600
Maybe we have the slug or someone else slipping or there's always something that goes on.

01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,600
And then there is a lot of disparity when it comes to facility.

01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:30,640
I can never climb competition-style things because we can't set them.

01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,760
We don't have the space, we don't have the ability.

01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,100
We really don't have the space.

01:21:36,100 --> 01:21:38,480
Our bouldering area is incredibly small.

01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:42,320
We have a lot of roots, but we have very little bouldering.

01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:48,120
So the only thing that I can do is to go to other places in Stockholm and try to do comp

01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,120
style things.

01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:54,120
Of course, I can't be very good at those if I can't train them.

01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,560
And then this is how it is.

01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:04,360
We have to accept that we try to make it as even as possible, but for a sport and especially

01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,520
climbing is very, very far from being fair.

01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,000
Very, very far.

01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,120
As I said, Jayla, she was two years old.

01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,040
She has a home wall.

01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:23,120
And her bouldering space is bigger than the bouldering space that we have in our gym.

01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:24,680
It's like this.

01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:29,080
And I mean, Jayla has her own personal mental coach.

01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:35,920
And we're trying to bring it, to make it fair as much as possible.

01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:39,680
Then what are the conclusions that you...

01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,480
Everyone is trying to do their best, even in the competition setting.

01:22:42,480 --> 01:22:49,080
Jayla is not just amazing because she has those privileges, let's say.

01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:51,440
But at the same time, we have to consider.

01:22:51,440 --> 01:22:55,840
Some people don't have some privileges and some people have them.

01:22:55,840 --> 01:23:01,040
And we have to try to understand that these things happen.

01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,880
And sometimes there are other things that get in the way.

01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,760
And they said, maybe you injure yourself.

01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:07,760
And sometimes this happens.

01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:10,200
It's just like lack of luck.

01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,640
You have a genetic predisposition to injuries as well.

01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,480
So what if you have...

01:23:15,480 --> 01:23:19,360
I have neck injuries all the time, since before flagging.

01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,720
So I have chronic pain for my neck.

01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,920
And I always need to be very cautious about it all the time.

01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:30,120
And at the moment, it's hurting a lot.

01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:34,620
And there is something that is there all the time in the back of my head.

01:23:34,620 --> 01:23:39,920
So I know that I, in a certain sense for me, trying to look into going forward with my

01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:44,960
competitive climbing means trying to go around this.

01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:47,000
It's something that I have to think.

01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:53,800
Beatrice Colle, speed climber, Italian, now World Cup level.

01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:59,720
She has a deformation in her heel and she has special shoes for her to be made because

01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:01,340
she has this disease.

01:24:01,340 --> 01:24:03,300
And the heel hooking for her is very painful.

01:24:03,300 --> 01:24:05,280
So she has to go around that.

01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:09,240
She's a speed climber, but of course she does all the types of climbing as well.

01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,400
And so she has to go around this.

01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:16,360
And sometimes you have to think about like, these things happen.

01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:21,840
Sometimes we try to go around them, but there is not much thing that we can do about them.

01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,640
Yeah, we're coming to the end of time.

01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:31,080
I think those were all the questions I had, but do you have any final thoughts?

01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:32,440
It was a pleasure being here.

01:24:32,440 --> 01:24:33,440
Yeah.

01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:35,560
Do you want to let people know where they can find you?

01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:36,600
Absolutely.

01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:43,840
So they can find me and my email that is alegra at climbingflow.com.

01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:49,840
Of course, you can also find me on Instagram, Aligra McGuire.

01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,440
You can follow through the YouTube channel.

01:24:52,440 --> 01:24:56,360
There's Aligra McGuire, climbing psychologist.

01:24:56,360 --> 01:25:03,360
And yeah, basically I am active on all of these social media.

01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:13,920
My answer, and if you want to know more about my mental coaching services, www.climbingflow.com.

01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:15,600
And then there are also my contacts.

01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:16,600
Yeah.

01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,840
I'll leave all of the links below in the description.

01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:21,280
Yeah.

01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:22,280
Thank you so much.

01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,120
It was amazing to talk to you.

01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:25,120
Thank you.

01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:30,140
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.

01:25:30,140 --> 01:25:34,200
If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the

01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:36,000
comments below.

01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:39,100
And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.

01:25:39,100 --> 01:25:44,240
If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and

01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:50,080
you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing discord linked in all

01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:53,080
the descriptions through all the platforms.

01:25:53,080 --> 01:26:00,440
Thanks again for listening.