61: Max Ayrton, World Climbing Routesetter (and cartwheel guy)

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So there was 40 minutes of us setting and testing

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some of the boulders that was streamed out into

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the internet. So we ended up having to change

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two of the boulders. The women's final, we put

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a hand jam in, but it's rock climbing, isn't

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it? It's a skill that they had choosing not to

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look, not to work on. And that's their choice.

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Like, it's not like it's like, oh, it's just

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stupid, crazy parkour. It's like a pretty standard

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rock climbing skill. I don't want to be known

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for that move. You know, like, I don't want to

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be there. The cartwheel guy. Welcome to another

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episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

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I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce

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my guest for today, Max Ayrton. Max is a world

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climbing route setter from Great Britain who

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most recently set for the Bouldering World Series

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in Bern and will be setting in Salt Lake in October

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as well. In this episode, we'll learn about hold

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shipping, what happened when the Bern Finals

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boulders got leaked early online, whether World

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Cup route setters can actually climb the boulders

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they set, and we'll hear about his extremely

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hot take on alternative climbing moves. Hint,

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I had no idea that he is the infamous cartwheel

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boulder setter. I hope you enjoy this episode

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with Max. Please pardon this brief intermission,

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now back to the show do you travel a lot or are

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you like usually just at home uh i do travel

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a lot but i am at home now I've actually had

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this month. It's been pretty chill. I've been

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home. Oh, okay. Yeah. Even after like the comps

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and all that? Yeah, since I got back from Bern,

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I've not been in a way anywhere. Oh, that's nice.

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Yeah, I guess just like jumping right into things.

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How did you get into climbing? I've kind of all

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had climbing. There's like photos of me climbing

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when I was three. Like I've had climbing in my

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life. So like your family? Yeah, both my parents

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have climbed. They don't climb that much anymore.

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But then I kind of really got into it through

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school when I was about 13, 14, something like

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that. It was an auction for the sports afternoon

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once a week. Oh, really? Like you guys had a

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wall? No, we went to a gym in the city nearby.

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Like an after school program kind of thing or

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like a gym class kind of thing? It was, yeah,

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gym class. Wednesday afternoons was always sport

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for us. And we'd play rugby or football or whatever,

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usually. Every now and then, once you got a bit

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older, into like third or fourth year of school,

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they let you do more options. Climbing was one

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of them. So then how long after starting climbing

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did you start setting? Not that long. I was climbing

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a lot and I got really into climbing. And so

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I was at the climbing gym regularly every evening.

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I was in the squad. But then I was still going.

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with school and when i went with school it was

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in the daytime so one of the instructors who

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often took the group was also one of the route

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setters um and so sometimes he'd be setting and

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sometimes he'd be taking the session and because

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i was climbing at a level above most of the other

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people on the group he sometimes was like you

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look bored come and help me over here and i'd

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put some holds on or i'd help him i think i was

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about 17 when He started letting me settle in

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and then it just sort of built from there. And

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did you ever do like competition yourself? Yeah,

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so I was on the youth squad for the gym and then

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I was competing nationally and I made it onto

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the youth national team. I had one year as a

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junior in the European Cup circuit, European

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Youth Cups. And then I had one year as a member

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of the senior team a few years later. Why did

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you decide to leave the competition circuit as

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a competitor? A number of reasons, I think. For

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me, I didn't really have the drive. I didn't

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really want to win. I think if you don't have

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that, you're never going to do that well. You've

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got to really want it, and I didn't really feel

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like that was me. But at the same time, I just

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really enjoyed setting. I definitely had like

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a, it was a conundrum. I was like, oh, what do

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I want to do? And I chose setting. So I'm happy

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with that. Yeah. Was it like hard for you to

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balance setting and competing at the same time?

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It's like, cause setting can be very physical.

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Yeah. When I was on the senior team, I had a

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year, I mean, I had a few years, but there was

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a year where I was competing. I did a world cup

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circuit and then anytime I wasn't away, I was

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home setting for five days a week. Oh, driving

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around, living in my van. Ah, classic. So it

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gave a lot of opportunity for training because

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you're always in a different venue with lots

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of boulders and lots of exposure to different

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things. But yeah, it was definitely hard to balance.

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Did you feel like your setting helped you with

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your competitions at all? Like knowing what's

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inside a setter's head or something like that?

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Yeah, I think so. I think sometimes understanding

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what the setters had in mind. even if you think

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you can do something different, it's quite useful.

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And I think that pattern recognition comes easier

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if you are doing it yourself, you understand

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the thought process. What are some things that

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you would see? I think just usually setting for

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comps, everything has a purpose. So if there's

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a random hold on the wall that you aren't sure

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what it's for, then it probably is useful. You

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need to figure out how to use it. So it's more

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of a like knowing to do that and being like,

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oh, why is that there? What do I need to do?

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It helps. Have you set for other World Cups or

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like World Series before? Yeah, I was setting

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in Seoul last year for World Champs. And Innsbruck

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last year, Innsbruck year before. First of all,

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just getting into like setting at a higher level.

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How did you go from just like... setting kind

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of casually to setting for like more league competitions

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and then eventually working with uh world climbing

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i think i was very lucky like there's not really

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a pathway that's clearly defined i think it's

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getting better but um i was just setting commercially

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a lot and one of the gyms i sat at uh one of

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the like headset are there ran like a comp series

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and so he brought me into set a couple of rounds

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of that. And it was really good fun. And then

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I just kind of kept pushing and got to set up

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some national things when I think someone was

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pulled out last minute and there was a space

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and they called me. I set a lot nationally. And

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then to get into IFSC world climbing, they put

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out an email to all the federations saying we're

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opening spaces this year for level 12. aspirant

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route setters at that time it was before the

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level system and i was i was lucky the federation

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put me forward and i got it okay what's the level

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system now i think yeah most people don't really

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know like how that works yeah so i think it was

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two years ago they brought in this new system

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to try and consolidate the ifsc setters with

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the like continental setters because i think

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the continental Particularly the European, IFC

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Europe were kind of doing their own thing. And

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I think they wanted to kind of make sure everyone

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was on the same page. So now there's four levels

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for world's climbing route sets. Level one is

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continental route setter. So you can set for

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continental events. Level two is continental.

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Like you can be the head route setter for continental

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events. Level two and three are a bit weird.

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But that's kind of... And then level three is

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world route setter. So you can set for World

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Cups and World Series. And then level four is

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you can be head route setter for those things.

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But yeah, like level two, like being the head

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route setter for European Championships is kind

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of harder than being a route setter for a World

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Cup, I would say. Oh, really? It's a bit of a

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weird... Why is that? A weird thing. Just the

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level of responsibility you've got if you're

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running the route setting for a European champs

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or an Asian champs, that's quite a big deal.

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And it takes a lot of skills that you won't necessarily

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need just to go and set for a competition. I

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think the skills of a head route setter are quite

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different. To be the head route setter is quite

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different to being just setting. And so then

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going back to... signing up or like becoming

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a world climbing route center do you kind of

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just like sign up still or are they like reaching

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out to you personally or is it just like who

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wants to do this and so yeah the start of the

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year or the end of in like november december

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they'll send out the calendar and ask you to

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say what you're available for and then they have

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the challenging job of going through and like

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mapping everyone on to what they can do and trying

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to make sure people get enough you don't get

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a lot of say you could just say that you're only

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available for these two and then you probably

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get one of them but they don't like they don't

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like you doing that so it's like a good chance

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that you'll get at least like one gig through

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yeah yeah i think i don't think there's many

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people on the list who haven't got a comp this

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year okay so then with uh specifically the setting

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and burn um first of all how did you like the

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comp yeah it was good i think we were quite lucky

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in some of the rounds but In the end, it was

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good. Yeah, what do you mean by lucky? The women's

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final was definitely a bit on the hard side.

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We were lucky that the boulders all got... I

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mean, there was... We'll probably talk about

00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:09.169
that in a minute. There was all this stuff with

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the video. Wait, with the video? Oh, maybe you

00:11:13.629 --> 00:11:15.070
don't know. Okay, we can talk about that in a

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minute. So after the women's semi -final, they

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didn't turn off the stream to the Chinese platform,

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Bilibi. So there was 40 minutes of us setting

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and testing some of the boulders that was streamed

00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:33.840
out into the internet. So we ended up having

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to change two of the boulders. Yes. Okay, that

00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.480
makes sense. So I was wondering, yeah, I did

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hear that the finals boulders got leaked, but

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I didn't know how that happened. So, okay, that

00:11:44.580 --> 00:11:46.720
makes sense. I think that's a first for that.

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I'd not heard of that happening before. Okay,

00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:51.860
gotcha. So was that like a stressful experience

00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:56.190
for you guys? Yeah, it was. a little bit crazy

00:11:56.190 --> 00:12:00.330
we we reset one of the boulders pretty much totally

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i mean we used the same holds and i think the

00:12:03.929 --> 00:12:05.450
start hold on the finish hold stayed in the same

00:12:05.450 --> 00:12:09.490
place but it was quite a simple boulder anyway

00:12:09.490 --> 00:12:12.629
so it was quite fast to do that and then the

00:12:12.629 --> 00:12:13.970
other boulder i think it was the fourth boulder

00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:17.210
we changed the second half from the zone to the

00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:19.990
top i guess i thought that you guys set the boulders

00:12:19.990 --> 00:12:24.860
before like semis or finals even happens So then

00:12:24.860 --> 00:12:28.759
there's not that much creation or like testing

00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.580
that needs to happen again? So because of the

00:12:33.580 --> 00:12:35.580
results of the women's semifinal, we were making

00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.220
some tweaks to the women's final. Oh, okay. That

00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:39.919
makes sense. And so we were climbing these two

00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.080
boulders that happened to be also in the camera

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.299
frame. Ah, okay. So there was footage of us climbing

00:12:46.299 --> 00:12:50.080
on them as part of our stream. So that was why

00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:51.779
we had to change them. It was a big discussion

00:12:51.779 --> 00:12:55.399
with the event delegate. jury president and like

00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:57.600
what do we do can we find a video and send it

00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.700
to the coaches and in the end the decision was

00:13:00.700 --> 00:13:02.519
made that we just let's just change these two

00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.740
bombers so you were like deciding between just

00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:08.000
letting everyone see the tweaking process or

00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.840
instead of like having to reset yeah if potentially

00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.460
we could have found the footage and given it

00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:17.080
to them in iso so they were all on the same level

00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.580
playing field but it was i think they couldn't

00:13:19.580 --> 00:13:21.879
find it or it was decided that having them sit

00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:23.639
there and watch 40 minutes of footage isn't really

00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.340
that fair, bar me. But then, I mean, I guess,

00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:29.299
wouldn't you be concerned that it would be too

00:13:29.299 --> 00:13:32.460
easy because they would like know exactly how

00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:34.700
to do it or like maybe the nuances of the boulder?

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:38.600
Not really. Those two boulders were like physical

00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:40.639
boulders and they weren't particularly complicated

00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.159
from a route reading perspective, I don't think.

00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:45.600
So I don't think it would have affected it that

00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.370
much. I guess like how long does a typical process

00:13:48.370 --> 00:13:50.830
take for you guys to like put up a boulder? And

00:13:50.830 --> 00:13:53.049
then when you were resetting the whole boulder,

00:13:53.090 --> 00:13:55.570
like how long did that take you to figure out

00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:58.750
a new configuration? When we were setting, we

00:13:58.750 --> 00:14:01.509
set the four women's final boulders, took all

00:14:01.509 --> 00:14:06.250
day, most of the day to set those boulders. And

00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:08.889
then I think we had about an hour or 45 minutes

00:14:08.889 --> 00:14:13.070
or something to change these two. Hannah is the

00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:16.600
jury president. we were talking at the end and

00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.080
he was like in his opinion sometimes the route

00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.200
says keep changing the boulders to make it different

00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.259
but not to make it better which is quite a good

00:14:24.259 --> 00:14:26.440
perspective and at this time like we didn't have

00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:28.759
the time so it kind of worked fine what do you

00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:32.340
think is the part that takes so long like when

00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:34.639
you're doing the initial setting i think part

00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.460
of it is that really we will try different options

00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:42.769
so that we have choices we can make when we put

00:14:42.769 --> 00:14:46.450
it back up to make it easier or harder or less

00:14:46.450 --> 00:14:48.470
complicated or more complicated whereas this

00:14:48.470 --> 00:14:50.450
time we'd already seen them climbing so we didn't

00:14:50.450 --> 00:14:52.929
need to do that we just made it how it needed

00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:55.950
to be straight the first time so i think that

00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:00.429
that was part of why it was easier but um but

00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:03.210
yeah sometimes sometimes you do just use the

00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:05.830
time that you have so because we have all day

00:15:05.830 --> 00:15:08.700
to test the boulders we take that time Whereas

00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:10.879
this time we had 45 minutes, so we'll just do

00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.759
it in 45 minutes. Have you heard the saying that's

00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.879
like basically the amount of time you take to

00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.480
do something just expands to like fill up the

00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.720
amount of time that you have to do the thing?

00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:24.279
Yeah, I think it's a bit of that for sure. Well,

00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.059
I mean, I guess if you have more time than you

00:15:26.059 --> 00:15:28.600
think like, oh, we could also do this and then

00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.419
add this on and then why not try? Yeah. Okay.

00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.519
That makes sense. So one of the audience questions

00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:38.240
that had come in was. A lot of people said that

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.200
Burn was like a really good World Cup with excellent

00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:45.240
setting and production. Do you feel like you

00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.779
had a lot of control over that? I know you mentioned

00:15:47.779 --> 00:15:50.620
a couple of times that you felt it was lucky

00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:54.860
that it turned out that way. And also, does Burn

00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:57.720
being in a climate -controlled venue make the

00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:01.039
job easier or more predictable? It makes the

00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.340
results way more predictable from round to round

00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:06.659
for the athletes, which is nice. For us, when

00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:08.639
we were setting, they didn't turn the air conditioning

00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.200
on. So when we first set the vault, the semis

00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:12.779
and finals boulders, we were in a different venue

00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:17.440
and then they moved the wall. So that, I think

00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.360
for that, actually, it wasn't too different from

00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.600
what they then had when they were competing.

00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.340
But when we set the qualifiers, we were in the

00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:27.360
main venue, but the air conditioning was off

00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.580
and they had all the doors open and it was pretty

00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:33.649
warm that week. So for the women's qualifiers,

00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:37.230
we actually like way undercooked it because it

00:16:37.230 --> 00:16:39.029
was so much colder for them when they were climbing

00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:41.769
and we haven't quite factored it being so different.

00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:45.289
And I think the round also had a lot of friction

00:16:45.289 --> 00:16:50.009
dependent holds and climbing. So yeah, it was

00:16:50.009 --> 00:16:53.730
pretty easy, the women's qualifier. But then

00:16:53.730 --> 00:16:55.870
we compensated for the men's. The men's was good

00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:57.549
because we took that into account when we were

00:16:57.549 --> 00:16:59.519
putting the bowls back up. So it didn't actually

00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.080
make it easier being a climate -controlled venue

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.819
because you weren't actually setting there. Yeah.

00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.059
Yeah, we tried to ask them to get them to turn

00:17:09.059 --> 00:17:13.420
the aircon on for the end of the second day of

00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:15.519
setting qualifiers, but I think they did, but

00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.079
it was pretty near the end of the process. I

00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.980
guess not even just for this competition in general,

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.460
but with any world climbing competitions you've

00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:29.119
set, do you feel like you... actually have control

00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.180
over the results in a way or is it just kind

00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:35.500
of like you put boulders up and then you kind

00:17:35.500 --> 00:17:38.740
of have to hope that it will separate people

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:41.000
i mean yeah there's definitely an element of

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.119
that i think you can control it to an extent

00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.819
it's possible to play it safe and get a result

00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:53.460
but you get around with lots of tops and then

00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:57.450
you risk having too many tops so it's I think

00:17:57.450 --> 00:17:59.730
to have a really good round that's really exciting

00:17:59.730 --> 00:18:01.750
to watch and really fun, you have to take some

00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:04.670
risks and hope that it goes well. But obviously

00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:06.930
it comes down to experience and being like, where

00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:09.170
can we take the risk? Which moves can we take

00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:13.650
a risk on? When you say playing it safe, wouldn't

00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:17.130
having a lot of tops not exactly be safe? People

00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:19.509
would be pretty mad about that. Or do you mean

00:18:19.509 --> 00:18:23.490
safe in terms of there will at least be separation

00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:26.960
by attempts? Yeah, so obviously... The perfect

00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.059
round, there's one boulder that has one top and

00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:32.720
then a boulder that has a few tops and a boulder

00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.180
that has a few more and one boulder that has

00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:38.720
five or six or whatever. And that boulder with

00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.099
one top is always a challenge because if you

00:18:42.099 --> 00:18:44.619
only want one top, you have to split the top

00:18:44.619 --> 00:18:48.220
climbers. And you can play it safe by being like,

00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.380
we know this will get one top. It might get two.

00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:53.339
And it will be your last exciting round probably.

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.059
I didn't know that that was considered like the

00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:58.220
perfect round, like that the perfect round would

00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:00.700
have. Yeah, I think everyone has a different

00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.740
opinion of what makes a good round. Do you want

00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:07.440
one that has a lot of tops just because, I mean,

00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:10.839
I would, I think as a competitor, it feels good

00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.900
to like get something done. So is that why you

00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:16.460
would want one that like has tops for most people?

00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.220
Yeah, and I think the crowd like to see people

00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:22.890
topping boulders. I don't know it's nice I mean

00:19:22.890 --> 00:19:25.450
you don't always need an easy one but I think

00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:27.970
usually there's an easier boulder that gets more

00:19:27.970 --> 00:19:32.309
more tops or more zones or whatever yeah I actually

00:19:32.309 --> 00:19:34.589
didn't think of that being something that you

00:19:34.589 --> 00:19:36.849
would want I think I have noticed that there

00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:40.920
is always like an easier boulder and then I actually

00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.440
see that people tend to still get kind of upset

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.180
about that. They're like, oh, this boulder was

00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:47.500
like way too easy and everyone's doing it. So

00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:49.759
I didn't know that that was like an intentional

00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.000
choice. Yeah, I mean, it can go too far and everyone

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.759
flashes it or everyone does it very quickly.

00:19:55.819 --> 00:19:58.099
And then that's also not useful for the results

00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:02.099
and it's not helpful. But it's still nice if

00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:05.220
you can to get separation down so that everyone's

00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:07.380
split all the way down to eighth place in a final.

00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:10.049
And if all of your boulders are hard, then splitting

00:20:10.049 --> 00:20:13.410
six, seven, eight can be quite hard. You probably

00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:16.410
don't want everyone to top a boulder necessarily,

00:20:16.589 --> 00:20:21.069
but you want a boulder that everyone can get

00:20:21.069 --> 00:20:24.109
high on, I think, and at least get the chance

00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:26.609
to fight. At least in my opinion. I'm not sure.

00:20:26.650 --> 00:20:29.950
Not everyone feels the same way, probably. No,

00:20:30.009 --> 00:20:33.690
I think that does feel nice. I just I for some

00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:35.589
reason never like thought about that. So it's

00:20:35.589 --> 00:20:37.730
actually kind of like blowing my mind that that's

00:20:37.730 --> 00:20:41.170
something I had never considered. I was just

00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.130
like, well, each one is supposed to like wreck

00:20:43.130 --> 00:20:45.569
them and destroy them and be like the biggest

00:20:45.569 --> 00:20:49.269
possible challenge. So, yeah, interesting. And

00:20:49.269 --> 00:20:51.329
sometimes with you like play with the order of

00:20:51.329 --> 00:20:53.269
the boulders. So if you know there's two hard

00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:55.430
physical boulders, you might be like, actually,

00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:56.809
we're going to give them the easy boulder in

00:20:56.809 --> 00:20:59.630
the middle. because then the good climbers will

00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:01.690
flash that they can have a good rest and then

00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:03.190
they have more energy for the harder one again

00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:06.730
after i have noticed i feel like i've noticed

00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:09.210
more recently that the power boulder is always

00:21:09.210 --> 00:21:15.390
at the very end is that like a thing um not intentionally

00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:19.410
no you just usually the most whatever we think

00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:21.369
is the best looking or most exciting boulder

00:21:21.369 --> 00:21:23.430
or go or the one that's going to have the best

00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:26.519
most exciting result on it will go last but do

00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.039
you have like a favorite ordering of i guess

00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:34.380
like slab versus easy versus power boulder it's

00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:37.640
good to mix it up i think usually because of

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:42.140
how the format works with the two climbers they're

00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:44.599
that world climbing like for the first boulder

00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.579
and the last boulder not to be the slab or not

00:21:48.579 --> 00:21:51.039
to be a slow boulder yeah so they don't want

00:21:51.369 --> 00:21:52.910
when there's only one climber on the mat, for

00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:54.990
them to be stood on the mats a lot. They want

00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:57.769
climbing happening. So usually the first boulder

00:21:57.769 --> 00:22:00.250
will be a power boulder or coordination or something

00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:03.329
where they're not going to rest a lot. Yeah,

00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:05.430
that reminds me of one of the other audience

00:22:05.430 --> 00:22:08.269
questions that came in. This one was from Jenny.

00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:11.369
They asked, what guidance are the route setters

00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:15.289
given by the IFSC or world climbing? So there

00:22:15.289 --> 00:22:20.420
is sort of like a style thing that was... It

00:22:20.420 --> 00:22:22.140
came in for the Olympics because it needed to

00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:23.819
be standardized so that the lead -in boulder

00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:27.319
could match with power boulder, a coordination

00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:29.859
boulder, a balanced technical boulder, and an

00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:33.819
electric boulder. Nobody really knew what electric

00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:37.119
was, so that's kind of gone away now. So do you

00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.759
guys still follow those guidelines? Or is that

00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:42.880
just like, since it's no longer an Olympic year,

00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.579
it's not in play? So those specific guidelines

00:22:46.579 --> 00:22:50.000
aren't used anymore, but we still will set. in

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:53.380
each round, a power boulder, a coordination boulder,

00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.960
and a slap technical boulder. And then this year

00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:57.799
they're doing like a thing where they try and

00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:04.779
each comp will have two of one style. So there'll

00:23:04.779 --> 00:23:06.980
be two, but two, because there's six boulder

00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:09.259
comps, there'll be two with two power boulders,

00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.099
two with two coordination boulders, and two with

00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:15.319
two balance boulders. Or that's the idea. No

00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:16.819
one's quite sure if it's actually happening or

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:20.109
not. Yeah, I... Haven't really noticed that,

00:23:20.170 --> 00:23:22.730
but I know that someone had mentioned each comp

00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:27.950
likes being told that they should have a theme.

00:23:28.190 --> 00:23:30.670
So maybe that's what they mean by that? Yeah,

00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:34.309
I think so. But we've been told it only applies

00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:36.589
to the final, so it's not like the whole comp.

00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:41.190
And so which was the one for Burn? We had Power,

00:23:41.349 --> 00:23:43.589
so we had two Power Baldurs, which is actually

00:23:43.589 --> 00:23:47.130
the easiest because saying Power Baldurs is much

00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:49.640
quicker than saying. setting anything else but

00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.920
just like easier in terms of um like not having

00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.279
to test it as as much yeah they're just much

00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:58.579
quicker there's less options so there's there's

00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:01.640
yeah it's much quicker to test and adjust do

00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:03.660
you prefer setting power boulders or like what's

00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:08.019
your favorite thing to set i like slabs and technical

00:24:08.019 --> 00:24:10.240
boulders or like slightly overhanging technical

00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.440
boulders personally okay i mean for me to climb

00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.319
on that's what i like but Okay. So I think, yeah,

00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.440
we're kind of like transitioning into more general

00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.980
route setting questions that I have. One that's

00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:27.059
at the top of my mind that I recently had like

00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:31.230
an argument with some friends over is. Do you

00:24:31.230 --> 00:24:33.809
guys actually climb the whole boulders when you're

00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:36.109
floor running? Please excuse this brief intermission,

00:24:36.289 --> 00:24:38.589
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00:25:01.170 --> 00:25:03.910
helped me break even and they helped me improve

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00:25:06.789 --> 00:25:09.150
help out non -monetarily, liking, commenting

00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:12.150
and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back

00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:16.829
to the show. Rarely. It does happen. But no,

00:25:16.890 --> 00:25:20.390
not usually because we'll be making changes.

00:25:20.529 --> 00:25:22.369
So if you climbed it from the bottom to the top

00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:24.809
every time, you'd climb it a hundred times before

00:25:24.809 --> 00:25:27.269
you're happy with the boulder. So you just get

00:25:27.269 --> 00:25:30.619
really tired. So once we've sort of tested a

00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:32.099
move and we're happy with it, we won't really

00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:35.880
try that move again until or at all, maybe. I

00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.599
mean, I guess, yeah, obviously you wouldn't do

00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:40.779
it while you're like still testing out the moves.

00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:45.240
Do people do it like at the end ever? Sometimes,

00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:48.000
yeah. Usually it's pretty scary if you do it.

00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.220
What do you mean? Well, if you do a boulder bottom

00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.859
to top as a route setter and you're like, oh,

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.539
these athletes train full time. They're going

00:25:56.539 --> 00:25:58.650
to be better than me. So if I could do it, surely

00:25:58.650 --> 00:26:00.230
they're going to do it all first go as well.

00:26:01.150 --> 00:26:03.089
But sometimes you need to remember, oh, actually,

00:26:03.130 --> 00:26:04.829
no, I've been climbing all of these moves for

00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:06.710
the last hour. Like I know. And then they only

00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.730
have like four or five minutes. You like learn

00:26:08.730 --> 00:26:10.990
it. And then, yeah, then they have five minutes.

00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:15.230
Okay. So would you say that you could like do

00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:19.130
all of the boulders that you said? Bottom to

00:26:19.130 --> 00:26:24.029
top. Definitely not. Not at all. Okay. And no,

00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:28.039
I mean, I'm not a super. Super WOD when it comes

00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.700
to fruit setters. Like I'm not super strong.

00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.279
I'm better on the more technical balance and

00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.960
cordo side of things really. But I did do the

00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.740
women's final, the yellow volumes. Women's three

00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:45.539
that got one top. I did that bottom to top before

00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:47.839
the final and I was a little bit worried it was

00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.589
too easy, but. In the end, it was too hard, probably.

00:26:51.089 --> 00:26:53.109
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess since you climbed

00:26:53.109 --> 00:26:57.009
that one, it was pretty much only Aaron who did

00:26:57.009 --> 00:27:01.430
it or made any progress on it. What was it she

00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:03.750
did that unlocked that boulder that no one else

00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:06.970
could do? I think she just figured it out. That

00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:10.009
boulder physically wasn't very hard. It was just

00:27:10.009 --> 00:27:14.529
more about because the holds weren't... It wasn't

00:27:14.529 --> 00:27:17.029
obvious how you had to use the holds. It wasn't

00:27:17.029 --> 00:27:18.750
like, oh, you just grab the crimp and you pull

00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:20.710
and you grab the next crimp and you pull. It

00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:23.029
was like, oh, you have to push on one of the

00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:25.470
volumes and pull on the other and use them in

00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:27.990
different ways. And so it was just about figuring

00:27:27.990 --> 00:27:30.549
out. It was a puzzle, basically. Yeah, we actually

00:27:30.549 --> 00:27:34.670
made a change. The footholds on the volume, like

00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:37.069
after you pulled on, you stepped on to the volume.

00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:39.809
There was a foothold on that volume that we moved.

00:27:40.369 --> 00:27:42.369
If we'd left it where it was, it definitely would

00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:45.130
have been way too easy. But actually, I think

00:27:45.130 --> 00:27:47.509
if we'd taken the foothold off, they probably

00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:49.910
would have gotten better with the boulder than

00:27:49.910 --> 00:27:53.150
the fact that we moved the foot. Because they

00:27:53.150 --> 00:27:54.670
saw the foot and they wanted to stand on it,

00:27:54.730 --> 00:27:56.369
and I think if they hadn't stood on it, they

00:27:56.369 --> 00:27:58.730
would have done better. Oh, okay. It was like

00:27:58.730 --> 00:28:01.390
for later on in the sequence, but because they

00:28:01.390 --> 00:28:03.470
saw the foothold, they just immediately went

00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:07.190
to the foot. Yeah, okay. That would definitely

00:28:07.190 --> 00:28:11.400
trick me. Okay, so then... Yeah, going back to

00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.140
like setting the, or like when you're forehanding

00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:19.180
the boulders. So you're saying that you probably

00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.859
would just be able to do some of like the more

00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:24.220
technical ones? Is it like the power ones that

00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:27.000
you don't think you could do then? Bottom to

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.079
top, no, no way, no. Oh, really? Like I'll do

00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.500
moves. But you would say that you managed to

00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:37.200
do like all of the moves like in isolation to

00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.420
like test it out? As a team. usually all of the

00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:43.500
moves will get done it's it's rare that we'll

00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:47.140
leave at least i don't personally like to leave

00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:51.859
moves unclimbed but but it might be like it does

00:28:51.859 --> 00:28:55.240
happen sometimes you take the risk on a move

00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.759
or two but yeah usually or you'll do the move

00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.680
a slightly easier version of the move and then

00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.279
you'll make it just a little bit harder and you'll

00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.460
leave it like that okay but as a team it might

00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:10.059
be like There's three hard moves and they've

00:29:10.059 --> 00:29:11.720
all been done by different people and no one

00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.099
person's done them all. Well, great. I can keep

00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:18.640
this question in because my answer was right.

00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:22.779
So happy about that. Nice. I think I've also

00:29:22.779 --> 00:29:25.640
heard a lot about different setting styles and

00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:27.640
I feel like I've also heard your name thrown

00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.440
around by a bunch of other setters and climbers

00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:34.740
saying that they like your boulders. So what

00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:38.140
do you feel like? are these setting styles and

00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:40.740
like what is yours i mean definitely not everyone

00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:45.420
likes my style okay um generally i like to try

00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:49.660
and do things that are unconventional like okay

00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:51.859
put put the athletes in positions where they've

00:29:51.859 --> 00:29:53.460
got to do things that either they've not done

00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:58.799
before or they don't want to do um because i

00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.579
think that's interesting you get interesting

00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:03.440
results from that do you have like an example

00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:08.960
of that uh so in innsbruck last year 25 the women's

00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:12.779
final we put a hand jam in oh okay that was i

00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.119
set that bother with maura another i foresee

00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:19.480
so and and we were like the women hardly ever

00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:21.200
get hand jams it's happened actually happened

00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.000
a few times now since then but yeah it's like

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.920
yeah let's do it why not and it was fully no

00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.390
text and it was like you've just got a jam Do

00:30:28.390 --> 00:30:31.430
you feel like hand jams or like cracks are like

00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:35.309
a cheap option for setting and comps since it's

00:30:35.309 --> 00:30:38.490
just not a common skill that they work on? Well,

00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:40.589
but it's rock climbing, isn't it? It's a skill

00:30:40.589 --> 00:30:43.930
that they are choosing not to work on and that's

00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:46.250
their choice. It's something that we can do.

00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:52.329
It's not like it's just stupid crazy parkour.

00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:54.190
It's like a pretty standard rock climbing skill.

00:30:55.289 --> 00:30:57.529
People go out and do big splitter cracks all

00:30:57.529 --> 00:31:01.269
the time, all over the place. So if they've chosen

00:31:01.269 --> 00:31:04.470
not to work on that, then that's on them. I also

00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:06.509
not quite like to set grooves, where it's all

00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:09.329
about pushing and not pulling. You called it

00:31:09.329 --> 00:31:14.130
grooves? Yeah, dihedrals, probably, is what we

00:31:14.130 --> 00:31:16.569
would call it. Oh, okay, gotcha. Yeah, I've never

00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:18.430
heard of that before. But you don't get many

00:31:18.430 --> 00:31:21.519
of those on comp walls for big comps. It's hard.

00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:23.200
You need the right volumes to build a thing.

00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.339
You've mentioned that you think comps should

00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:28.119
set for climbing ability and not just strength.

00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:33.619
What do you consider climbing ability? Not necessarily

00:31:33.619 --> 00:31:36.599
just climbing ability, but I think recently,

00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:42.099
I think the puzzle has kind of disappeared. They're

00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:46.339
called boulder problems, because usually you

00:31:46.339 --> 00:31:47.940
have to work on that. You go bouldering outside

00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:52.470
often. It takes time to figure out the sequence

00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:54.529
or which holds to use or how to use the holds.

00:31:54.829 --> 00:31:59.369
I think a lot now, at least in the bigger comps,

00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:03.369
a lot of the boulders tend to just be, oh, you

00:32:03.369 --> 00:32:06.509
do the thing. And maybe it doesn't necessarily

00:32:06.509 --> 00:32:09.390
mean they're super simple, but it's like a pattern

00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:12.130
recognition thing. The athletes will be like,

00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:14.349
oh, I've trained this move, and so when I spot

00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:16.740
it, I can do it. that's almost like replaced

00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.920
route reading for a lot of the athletes it's

00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:20.819
like like they don't they can't they're not good

00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:22.339
at route reading they're just good at spotting

00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:25.759
things that they know how to do so i think that's

00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.200
why i like to challenge like maybe we can do

00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:29.779
this thing that you won't know how to do because

00:32:29.779 --> 00:32:31.460
and then you won't spot it and you've got to

00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.900
figure it out i guess i'm wondering but it's

00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:35.940
hard to do because there's not a lot of new moves

00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:38.720
yeah i was just thinking when you say you like

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.519
setting things that they haven't done before

00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.970
and um yeah like different moves that they're

00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:46.789
not used to doing i mean there's only so many

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:49.029
moves that you can do so like how do you think

00:32:49.029 --> 00:32:52.789
of it's not like a fundamentally new thing it's

00:32:52.789 --> 00:32:54.670
just like a new move in a different way that

00:32:54.670 --> 00:32:57.670
they won't have necessarily seen or with a different

00:32:57.670 --> 00:32:59.970
hold type than they used to or or it's ambiguous

00:32:59.970 --> 00:33:01.849
so there's like six different ways you can climb

00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:03.769
it and they've got to figure out the best one

00:33:03.769 --> 00:33:06.130
for them because i think that often a lot of

00:33:06.130 --> 00:33:08.230
athletes find that hard because they can't decide

00:33:08.230 --> 00:33:10.869
which way to keep trying and then they burn attempts

00:33:11.660 --> 00:33:13.859
Or they get lost, they get confused. Yeah, as

00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.319
someone who doesn't really set, how do you even

00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.940
set for something so specific? Like what makes

00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:23.619
it easier to create something that has various

00:33:23.619 --> 00:33:26.599
different ways of making it work without it just

00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.500
becoming like super easy? I think bigger holds

00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:33.039
that have more places you can hold them is an

00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.440
easy way. It's like, oh, actually, or picking

00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.519
up a hold and then using it in a way that it...

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.740
isn't obviously designed for i think sometimes

00:33:40.740 --> 00:33:44.079
you can like using the back of a hold rather

00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.700
than or making it look like you're going to use

00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:50.299
one side but actually use the other side or things

00:33:50.299 --> 00:33:53.539
like that i don't know it is i mean it's hard

00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:55.019
to do especially at that level because they're

00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:58.700
all so strong that you put anything on and they'll

00:33:58.700 --> 00:34:01.210
pull hard on it Okay. I guess that makes sense.

00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:03.549
Cause I was thinking like when it's outside,

00:34:03.710 --> 00:34:07.430
I feel like the problem solving comes from there

00:34:07.430 --> 00:34:10.929
being like a bunch of different options, especially

00:34:10.929 --> 00:34:13.050
for like feet and stuff, but they all just kind

00:34:13.050 --> 00:34:16.550
of suck. So you have to find the one that's best

00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:18.809
for you. So I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Like

00:34:18.809 --> 00:34:21.510
outside there's, there's often a lot more options

00:34:21.510 --> 00:34:23.269
for like where you stand and things like that.

00:34:23.309 --> 00:34:26.309
And I sometimes trying to bring an element of

00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:29.530
that indoors or not always indoors, but you know.

00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:33.860
like into it into that environment is like rather

00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:36.400
than putting a small foothold on like stand here

00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:38.639
you've got a big slopey ramp and they've got

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.300
to choose where they stand and it just brings

00:34:41.300 --> 00:34:45.639
a bit more complexity even though it's not necessarily

00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.679
a complex move okay yeah that makes sense i guess

00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.179
speaking of new moves what do you feel like is

00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:53.179
the future of route setting like are there any

00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:56.539
new moves left or are there like moves that you

00:34:56.539 --> 00:34:59.449
wish were more common i don't think there's many

00:34:59.449 --> 00:35:02.329
new moves left well what's the most recent like

00:35:02.329 --> 00:35:06.230
new move that we've seen i feel like the skip

00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:09.050
move on slab is like a big one that they're doing

00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:11.389
right now i don't know if that's considered new

00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:15.210
like the the foot hop with the same foot like

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:18.349
that yeah or like the foot hop and then they

00:35:18.349 --> 00:35:22.630
end up like in this kind of frog position yeah

00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:26.650
yeah i mean there's not fundamentally there's

00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:28.989
not that many moves is that it's like it's a

00:35:28.989 --> 00:35:32.130
rock over or it's whatever but every now and

00:35:32.130 --> 00:35:35.750
then there's like a a sort of gimmicky move that

00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:39.269
makes a becomes a thing and is around for a while

00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:41.289
and then it kind of goes away like we have the

00:35:41.289 --> 00:35:42.889
spin rounds where you have to turn around on

00:35:42.889 --> 00:35:45.530
the slab that kind of was everywhere for a year

00:35:45.530 --> 00:35:47.010
and then it's everyone's kind of got bored of

00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:50.989
it because once they're all once all the athletes

00:35:50.989 --> 00:35:53.650
know how to do it you can't really it's hard

00:35:53.650 --> 00:35:57.059
to make it be interesting again we kind of just

00:35:57.059 --> 00:35:59.539
eventually have to end up recycling old stuff

00:35:59.539 --> 00:36:04.440
yeah yeah i think so i think the the coaches

00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.659
and the climbers they see the trends and what's

00:36:06.659 --> 00:36:09.480
happening and so they train for that and then

00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:11.019
you've just got to be like oh well actually we're

00:36:11.019 --> 00:36:12.880
going to pull this thing from 10 years ago and

00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:14.500
make them do that and maybe they've not thought

00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:16.300
about it for a while i don't know is there like

00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:20.579
a coolest move that you've said before that you

00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:22.820
wish you saw more often i don't think there's

00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:26.210
anything i wish i saw more often I think it's

00:36:26.210 --> 00:36:28.969
good, like variety is good. I think I don't necessarily

00:36:28.969 --> 00:36:32.769
want to see the same move again. Like there's

00:36:32.769 --> 00:36:34.769
definitely moves that I've set and I've been

00:36:34.769 --> 00:36:39.050
like, yeah, this is really cool. But then if

00:36:39.050 --> 00:36:40.929
they're really specific, then you're like, oh,

00:36:40.989 --> 00:36:43.550
actually we've set that now. That can go in the

00:36:43.550 --> 00:36:45.070
back pocket and I'll do it again in 10 years.

00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:47.750
Okay. When they've all forgotten how to do it.

00:36:47.849 --> 00:36:50.469
Like there was a cartwheel at Quiff a few years

00:36:50.469 --> 00:36:53.510
ago. Right, yeah. And that was mine. And I'd

00:36:53.510 --> 00:36:57.030
actually set it. oh two years before in salt

00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:00.809
lake at the world cup there but then it's been

00:37:00.809 --> 00:37:05.230
we had to reset that boulder because the technical

00:37:05.230 --> 00:37:09.469
delegate decided it was too dangerous which whatever

00:37:09.469 --> 00:37:11.329
i mean it was their decision to make i don't

00:37:11.329 --> 00:37:13.230
think it was too dangerous we'd spent several

00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:15.489
days falling off it and it was fine but having

00:37:15.489 --> 00:37:18.449
then set it again i'm glad it was cancelled because

00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:20.590
it was would have been way too hard and no one

00:37:20.590 --> 00:37:22.409
would have done it because then the one i set

00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:26.630
subsequently was way easier and it still almost

00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:28.849
didn't i mean it didn't get a top it got but

00:37:28.849 --> 00:37:31.250
people did it but now it's been done i'm not

00:37:31.250 --> 00:37:33.869
interested in setting it again for a long time

00:37:33.869 --> 00:37:37.570
because i feel like if i say i don't want to

00:37:37.570 --> 00:37:40.409
be known for that move okay yeah you know like

00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:42.829
i don't want to be the the cartwheel guy yeah

00:37:42.829 --> 00:37:44.929
well that's happened we can move on and do something

00:37:44.929 --> 00:37:47.789
else now well i yeah i mean i guess it worked

00:37:47.789 --> 00:37:49.889
because i didn't know you were the original cartwheel

00:37:49.889 --> 00:37:55.159
guy um so that's That's good to know. But yeah,

00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:57.539
people were really up in arms about that one.

00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.300
I think there was a lot of discourse about that

00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:06.760
kind of move. And a lot of people were saying

00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:11.699
like, oh, this is too far gone from the origins

00:38:11.699 --> 00:38:14.980
of climbing. Yeah, what are your thoughts on

00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:20.019
that? I mean, yeah, probably. The really difficult

00:38:20.019 --> 00:38:22.989
bit about setting that move is... the start forcing

00:38:22.989 --> 00:38:25.130
the start position so that there's no other options

00:38:25.130 --> 00:38:29.329
and i don't think like nobody outdoors is doing

00:38:29.329 --> 00:38:31.550
proper full four point starts where they have

00:38:31.550 --> 00:38:33.409
to start with their feet in specific places so

00:38:33.409 --> 00:38:36.469
there would be no way to force that on rock so

00:38:36.469 --> 00:38:39.469
it's not like when people were saying that about

00:38:39.469 --> 00:38:42.090
paddle dinos and then actually these athletes

00:38:42.090 --> 00:38:44.530
are going out and putting up paddle dinos on

00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.070
rock it's just that people hadn't tried to do

00:38:46.070 --> 00:38:49.050
it before so yeah we're never going to see a

00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:52.250
cartwheel on rock but But it worked within the

00:38:52.250 --> 00:38:56.550
rules of the comp, so. Okay. Yeah, I don't necessarily

00:38:56.550 --> 00:38:58.969
see a problem with it. Some of the athletes liked

00:38:58.969 --> 00:39:01.150
it, some of them didn't. How do you feel about

00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:04.969
like the, I don't know, these like new school

00:39:04.969 --> 00:39:10.610
climbing moves and the diversion from original

00:39:10.610 --> 00:39:13.329
rock climbing? I mean, I think it's definitely

00:39:13.329 --> 00:39:16.670
a different thing now, isn't it? Like a lot of

00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:19.940
the comp climbers. a training specifically for

00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:23.280
this like they're not there's a lot of high level

00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.199
comp climbers that never climb outside and the

00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:29.300
whole focus is just on the competitions and that

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.280
side of it and it's kind of its own thing and

00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.619
there's still i mean there's still elements that

00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:37.019
are very similar but i don't think it needs to

00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:39.159
try and be the same i think it can be its own

00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:41.179
thing and i think that's okay do you feel like

00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:43.159
there's like a limit to what you're okay with

00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:47.710
in terms of setting setting different moves i

00:39:47.710 --> 00:39:50.869
think i saw on your page you had set for a comp

00:39:50.869 --> 00:39:53.610
that had like all the crazy like like basically

00:39:53.610 --> 00:39:56.329
the wall like moves too or there's like holds

00:39:56.329 --> 00:39:58.389
that are just like swinging around and stuff

00:39:58.389 --> 00:40:01.969
yeah i think there's more potential for that

00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:07.349
at a high level for sure oh really yeah the french

00:40:07.349 --> 00:40:12.750
champs had a a dino off 360 a whole brand make

00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:15.510
These monkeys with tails that are ropes, they're

00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:17.849
part of their kids' holds range. Oh, really?

00:40:18.050 --> 00:40:19.869
Oh, I haven't seen that one. It's just got a

00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:21.550
bit of rope sticking out of it that's the tail

00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:23.150
of the monkeys. Oh, wow. I mean, they're quite

00:40:23.150 --> 00:40:25.889
good for kids. But in the French Nationals this

00:40:25.889 --> 00:40:27.769
year, they set a coordination dino where you

00:40:27.769 --> 00:40:30.730
swam on the rope and you had to move off it.

00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:34.630
Yeah. Is there a video of that? Yeah, probably

00:40:34.630 --> 00:40:36.849
somewhere. Oh, my gosh. I have to find that.

00:40:37.070 --> 00:40:39.769
I think Pierre sent me a picture or a video when

00:40:39.769 --> 00:40:44.550
he did it. Oh, wow. Okay. And I think they did

00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:48.010
it at Austrian Youth Comp as well. So no limits,

00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:50.610
and you think that could make it to the world

00:40:50.610 --> 00:40:54.650
stage? Yeah, I think it should. The thing I don't

00:40:54.650 --> 00:40:56.789
think it should be is that every boulder is like

00:40:56.789 --> 00:40:59.889
that. Yeah, okay. But I think there's definitely

00:40:59.889 --> 00:41:03.349
space for that to happen every now and then,

00:41:03.429 --> 00:41:06.070
once a year or something. You have a boulder

00:41:06.070 --> 00:41:08.389
like that, I think that's cool. It's different.

00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:11.019
Because I think that's the thing about climbing

00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:12.719
that's so different from every other sport is

00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.079
that the field of play is different at every

00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.019
event. They come out and they don't know what

00:41:18.019 --> 00:41:20.000
they're going to get. And I think pushing that

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.699
element of it is cool. Like, oh, this is a thing

00:41:22.699 --> 00:41:25.659
you have never seen before. Because this hold

00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:27.460
spins around in circles and you've got to figure

00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:29.780
out how to use it. But then I don't think we

00:41:29.780 --> 00:41:31.340
should do that at every comp. It'll be like,

00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:34.179
oh, this one boulder and then it'll go away again.

00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:36.170
You don't need to worry about it. Because if

00:41:36.170 --> 00:41:37.710
you start doing it regularly, then they train

00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:39.210
for it and they get really good at it and then

00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:42.110
people get bored of it. Interesting. Okay. So

00:41:42.110 --> 00:41:44.610
I guess you're kind of thinking there'd be a

00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:48.050
comp that's like a classic slab and then a classic

00:41:48.050 --> 00:41:52.190
power and then some crazy parkour move and then

00:41:52.190 --> 00:41:55.570
like a little rope swing. Yeah, why not? I think

00:41:55.570 --> 00:41:58.309
that gives up an amazing amount of variety of

00:41:58.309 --> 00:42:00.309
climbing styles and movement. And I think that's

00:42:00.309 --> 00:42:01.889
cool. That's what it's all about. Interesting.

00:42:02.329 --> 00:42:04.250
I've actually never heard that before. So that's

00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:06.349
good to know. I definitely don't think everyone

00:42:06.349 --> 00:42:09.550
is on the same page as me there. Yeah. You're

00:42:09.550 --> 00:42:11.690
like really taking not real climbing to the next

00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:15.449
level. So I love that. That's cool. And I'm happy

00:42:15.449 --> 00:42:18.230
if the rest of the team are like, no, we're not

00:42:18.230 --> 00:42:19.989
doing that. I'm like, okay, cool. That's fine.

00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:23.989
But I like to ask the question. yeah okay that

00:42:23.989 --> 00:42:27.449
reminds me like very recently uh there was some

00:42:27.449 --> 00:42:32.190
outrage over like the zone versus tops points

00:42:32.190 --> 00:42:34.849
changing thing yeah i was briefly talking to

00:42:34.849 --> 00:42:38.730
um like jake mason about that um i think you

00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:43.150
guys are close um and yeah because he was pretty

00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:45.329
upset about that and i was like no i much prefer

00:42:45.329 --> 00:42:48.289
like the zones versus tops thing so what's your

00:42:48.289 --> 00:42:51.690
take on that i personally i like it as well i

00:42:51.690 --> 00:42:54.159
think I understand where people are coming from

00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:56.780
when they say that climbing is not about not

00:42:56.780 --> 00:42:59.280
getting to the top. It's all about the top. And

00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.659
people don't say, oh, I fell off the last move

00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:04.739
of this boulder last week. And that's not something

00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:09.000
they announce. But also, if one climber falls

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:10.820
off the last move of four boulders and someone

00:43:10.820 --> 00:43:12.699
else can't get off the floor on three boulders

00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:15.679
and then tops one, I still think that the other

00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.900
climber is the better climber. I think it's definitely

00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:22.780
different from the old system, but I don't. you

00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:26.599
know if it's better or worse it's just different

00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:30.059
and i like it but not everyone does yeah i think

00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:32.599
i i agree with that it's like frustrating to

00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.900
see someone do so much or like get so much further

00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:38.360
than someone else but not receive any recognition

00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.280
for it especially if like each move in between

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.679
felt kind of desperate and super hard and so

00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:47.380
i feel like it kind of helps reward that a little

00:43:47.380 --> 00:43:50.960
bit more and if we took it to the extreme then

00:43:51.579 --> 00:43:53.679
you wouldn't score it no one would get any points

00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.059
on lead unless they go to the top either yeah

00:43:56.059 --> 00:43:59.059
if you were to push that like nobody nobody says

00:43:59.059 --> 00:44:02.320
oh i got 39 moves up my lead route my lead project

00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.559
and announces that on instagram ruby so yeah

00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:08.079
yeah you've got to score people some way and

00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:10.280
like yeah well so then how do you feel about

00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:13.519
i guess like the pcs trying to do it so that

00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:16.360
every hold on a boulder is scored or is like

00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:20.699
plus to your score yeah i don't hate it Is that

00:44:20.699 --> 00:44:22.739
too far? Like, does that make it hard to set?

00:44:23.300 --> 00:44:26.019
I think it makes it difficult to set because

00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:30.460
sometimes sequences don't work in the way that

00:44:30.460 --> 00:44:32.159
you want them to work. And you might score it

00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.380
one way because that's how they'll climb it.

00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.420
But there's ways that you can get different points

00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:39.940
without getting to the top. So I think it's complicated.

00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.000
You mean like breaking the boulder with like

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.519
height? Yeah, or not even necessarily breaking

00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:47.760
the boulder, but like... breaking a sequence

00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.119
to get to a hold even though you know you won't

00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:51.639
be able to get any further just because it gets

00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.860
you more points yeah makes sense okay cool well

00:44:54.860 --> 00:44:58.960
then i think let's get into your like hold shaping

00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.980
uh piece of your life a bit yeah how did you

00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:04.199
get into hold shaping first of all and then like

00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.599
starting contact holds with alex yeah so again

00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.920
it's like a thing i've done a long time like

00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:13.539
i was in a shed near my next to my parents house

00:45:13.539 --> 00:45:18.260
then making fiberglass macros when I was 18 or

00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:22.400
something oh really okay really rustic macros

00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:26.340
yeah not not high quality ones but like I always

00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:29.340
it kind of came with the setting like creating

00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:31.519
the moves but also like creating holds that people

00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.519
to do things that people haven't seen before

00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:36.719
or not necessarily that but just holds that people

00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.960
haven't climbed on before and so that had always

00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:42.400
kind of been a thing making wooden volumes every

00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.920
now and then for people or whatever And then

00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:50.619
it was during COVID, we were bored. Alex was

00:45:50.619 --> 00:45:54.579
kind of living, he was living in his van, but

00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:56.119
he was kind of living out of our house at that

00:45:56.119 --> 00:46:00.260
time. And we were just sort of talking and like,

00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:03.719
oh yeah, maybe we should just do this. And so

00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:08.179
we started Contact in 2021, I think, when we

00:46:08.179 --> 00:46:10.340
first started working on it. And it kind of went

00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:13.619
from there and we were producing. We started

00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:15.840
just with macros because no one else was really

00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:18.820
producing those in the UK. Oh, really? Like there

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:22.360
were people producing holds, PE holds a lot in

00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:24.099
the UK, but no one was really producing macros

00:46:24.099 --> 00:46:27.059
in the UK. So we figured we'd start there. It

00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:29.820
seemed as good a place as any and it went well.

00:46:29.900 --> 00:46:33.079
And then last year, Alex moved to the US a few

00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:36.139
years ago. So he'd sort of taken a step back

00:46:36.139 --> 00:46:39.059
from it and was looking to sell his haft so that

00:46:39.059 --> 00:46:44.000
he could focus on other things. um super bought

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.699
ended up buying the whole company last year so

00:46:46.699 --> 00:46:49.940
now I work I still I'm running contacts but I'm

00:46:49.940 --> 00:46:52.940
working for them oh okay I didn't know that that's

00:46:52.940 --> 00:46:55.300
good to know I guess like what was the hardest

00:46:55.300 --> 00:46:57.760
part of starting the hold room I mean there's

00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.000
lots of just lots of things that come with running

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.159
a business that I haven't really considered before

00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:05.179
I think was main most of it yeah me and Alex

00:47:05.179 --> 00:47:07.199
had quite complementary skills like he was very

00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.760
good at selling holds okay which I wasn't very

00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:11.929
good at I mean, do you like doing the business

00:47:11.929 --> 00:47:14.230
side of things or are you more just like you

00:47:14.230 --> 00:47:17.929
wish you could just set and climb and not have

00:47:17.929 --> 00:47:23.070
to deal with the headache of business? I don't

00:47:23.070 --> 00:47:28.130
mind it. I don't like to set full time anymore.

00:47:28.269 --> 00:47:31.690
It's nice to be at home and not have to drive

00:47:31.690 --> 00:47:34.130
all over the country all the time. It's good

00:47:34.130 --> 00:47:36.050
to have something else that you can do. And I

00:47:36.050 --> 00:47:38.070
mean, the admin doesn't take that much time.

00:47:38.090 --> 00:47:42.480
Most of my time is spent. shaping or dealing

00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:46.039
with creating new ideas or whatever sounds like

00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.320
it's probably easier on your body yeah you're

00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:50.780
not like the first hold shaper i've talked to

00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:53.380
now i just i didn't know it would be so common

00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:56.539
um so like what is it with route setting and

00:47:56.539 --> 00:47:59.579
hold shaping is it like you frequently think

00:47:59.579 --> 00:48:02.260
of holds that don't exist yet that you want to

00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:04.920
use during the setting process maybe a little

00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.960
bit i mean there's not a lot of new holds that

00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:11.659
are different from anything else but I think

00:48:11.659 --> 00:48:15.659
it just comes from the type of people that get

00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:18.099
into route setting like creative but also like

00:48:18.099 --> 00:48:20.420
to work with their hands and so it's just another

00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:23.480
avenue for that and I think the people who are

00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:25.320
using the holds are usually the best people to

00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.380
be like designing the holds for what they want

00:48:27.380 --> 00:48:30.199
to do with them. I guess like what's the purpose

00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:34.159
then of creating like a hold or a shape that

00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:38.150
kind of already exists? I mean, personally, I

00:48:38.150 --> 00:48:40.969
don't like to do that. I like to try and do something

00:48:40.969 --> 00:48:46.309
different where I can. But then also you are

00:48:46.309 --> 00:48:49.650
trying to run a business. So making sets of jugs

00:48:49.650 --> 00:48:52.989
that people will buy is quite important. You

00:48:52.989 --> 00:48:54.909
need holds that people like gyms are going to

00:48:54.909 --> 00:48:58.030
buy for their circuits. Okay. So it's more of

00:48:58.030 --> 00:49:02.010
just like a logistical convenience to buy from

00:49:02.010 --> 00:49:04.210
the same brand. Yeah. And it's nice to have variety

00:49:04.210 --> 00:49:07.440
in your whole brand. So you've got sort of. every

00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.340
option covered so that people can come to you

00:49:09.340 --> 00:49:11.619
and you will have something that they need okay

00:49:11.619 --> 00:49:14.960
yeah that makes sense um when you're thinking

00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:18.159
of like building a new hold or something that

00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:20.260
you haven't seen before what usually inspires

00:49:20.260 --> 00:49:24.239
that um every now and then it's just sort of

00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:26.800
an idea will come to me and i'll or i'll just

00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:29.460
be using a bit of foam and something will come

00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:31.619
out of it like usually the first five ideas go

00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:34.619
in the bin and it's it's like i don't like that

00:49:35.559 --> 00:49:37.619
or you get a first draft you're like oh there's

00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:39.320
something there and then you just keep refining

00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.079
it until it's something that you like and then

00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:44.639
go from there there's not there's not like a

00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.179
magic answer but like oh just do this and it'll

00:49:47.179 --> 00:49:49.880
work for me i can't really visualize what the

00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.920
process actually looks like to make holds like

00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.400
what does it look like from start to finish for

00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:58.360
me usually i'll start by shaping it out out of

00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:01.219
a piece of foam so it's like carving a piece

00:50:01.219 --> 00:50:04.949
of foam Some people are doing that now on a computer.

00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:08.050
So you're like doing a 3D model and then going

00:50:08.050 --> 00:50:11.409
from that. But I like to feel it. I feel like

00:50:11.409 --> 00:50:14.469
it's a thing that we need to climb on. So it's

00:50:14.469 --> 00:50:15.889
nice to be able to feel it with your hands and

00:50:15.889 --> 00:50:18.650
know what it's going to feel like. But there's

00:50:18.650 --> 00:50:20.949
definitely shapes you can do on a computer much

00:50:20.949 --> 00:50:24.889
easier. And then for a hold, for like a climbing,

00:50:25.010 --> 00:50:28.909
for like a resin hold or PPU hold, from that

00:50:28.909 --> 00:50:30.869
foam, you can just mold the foam and that's...

00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:33.539
the texture comes from the holes in the foam.

00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:36.159
And then for a macro, you have to like finish

00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:39.079
the foam with fillet and polish it until it's

00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:40.719
really shiny and then you can mold it from there.

00:50:40.900 --> 00:50:44.659
This may be kind of like a dumb noob question,

00:50:44.860 --> 00:50:48.599
but I'm thinking about those, I guess like older

00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:52.719
school holds. Do hold manufacturers create holds

00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:56.099
with like terrible slick texture that's like

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:59.340
kind of greasy or is that just due to years of

00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:03.619
use? Yeah, nobody's setting out to make a really

00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:07.059
slippery climbing hold. I mean, unless it's no

00:51:07.059 --> 00:51:10.880
texture. Yeah. It's not no texture, though. It's

00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.179
just, like, bad. No, yeah. Collished. Yeah, polished.

00:51:14.179 --> 00:51:16.780
Yeah, I think that just comes from old holds.

00:51:17.179 --> 00:51:19.719
Okay. I think some materials are better than

00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:24.099
others. Like, PU is, like, this wonder material

00:51:24.099 --> 00:51:26.019
because it doesn't break, but it also does wear

00:51:26.019 --> 00:51:29.059
out much quicker, and they do, like, PU holds

00:51:29.059 --> 00:51:33.769
polish. fairly quickly whereas in the uk we have

00:51:33.769 --> 00:51:36.989
a lot of pe halts like a lot of gyms have no

00:51:36.989 --> 00:51:42.130
pu and they might only have pe and pe can last

00:51:42.130 --> 00:51:47.329
there's 25 year old halts in some gyms in the

00:51:47.329 --> 00:51:49.590
uk that are still kind of like they're definitely

00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:51.070
smoother than when they were new but they're

00:51:51.070 --> 00:51:53.449
still pretty usable so it's not necessarily like

00:51:53.449 --> 00:51:55.889
all of these new school like macros and stuff

00:51:55.889 --> 00:51:57.889
are eventually going to have that kind of texture

00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.360
No, no, no. And macros are textured in a different

00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:03.519
way, so they don't wear out in the same way.

00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:09.199
And again, the bigger the hold is, the economies

00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:11.639
of scale, because it's a more expensive hold,

00:52:11.739 --> 00:52:14.539
you can afford to repair it and re -texture it.

00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:18.860
How long is one hold supposed to last? I mean,

00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:22.440
as long as possible, really. I don't think there's

00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.159
a lot of holds that have gone into landfill anywhere.

00:52:26.349 --> 00:52:27.710
Like I don't, I don't think people are throwing

00:52:27.710 --> 00:52:29.969
away holds. When holds get to the end of their

00:52:29.969 --> 00:52:32.409
life in a gym, usually they'll, or a lot of gyms

00:52:32.409 --> 00:52:33.989
in the UK will just have a bucket by the door,

00:52:34.050 --> 00:52:36.570
like holds, two pounds and people will take them

00:52:36.570 --> 00:52:39.030
to their home walls or whatever. Very sustainable.

00:52:39.190 --> 00:52:42.130
I mean, for the holds that we've made, we've

00:52:42.130 --> 00:52:43.949
tried to basically make them last as long as

00:52:43.949 --> 00:52:46.690
we can and we'll repair them and refurbish them

00:52:46.690 --> 00:52:50.329
and whatever. Kind of indefinitely because I

00:52:50.329 --> 00:52:51.789
don't want, don't want them to go in the bin.

00:52:52.090 --> 00:52:54.860
Seems a waste. Okay. Cool. That makes sense.

00:52:55.019 --> 00:52:57.860
I think that's most of the questions I had then.

00:52:58.099 --> 00:53:00.039
We can get into some of the audience submitted

00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:04.539
questions and one is kind of related. So I'll

00:53:04.539 --> 00:53:07.519
start with that one. Mostly just asking about

00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:10.280
how to get more Alex Waterhouse content in their

00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:15.079
lives. I don't know. I've actually not spoken

00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.639
to him in a little while. I don't know. He's

00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:19.539
been much less active recently, hasn't he? I

00:53:19.539 --> 00:53:21.760
mean, he's busy. He's busy running a business.

00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.119
Oh, so is he still doing it in the US? So yeah,

00:53:26.179 --> 00:53:29.679
he's now set up another company. He's got another

00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:33.179
investor in the US. Absolute. So he's making

00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:39.179
thermoformed holds in Colorado. So what's the

00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:41.840
difference with those kinds of holds? It's just

00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:45.300
a different manufacturing process. Okay. The

00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:48.659
plastic they're made from is recyclable, which...

00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:52.360
is something that people like i'm not sure it's

00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:56.079
the recycling process is necessarily as like

00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:58.079
getting the texture off to recycle the hole i

00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.300
think it's quite hard so and i don't know how

00:54:01.300 --> 00:54:02.780
many people are actually going to recycle their

00:54:02.780 --> 00:54:05.300
holes they're probably going to repair them or

00:54:05.300 --> 00:54:08.699
reuse them but and it's just a different material

00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:10.659
to make the whole time yeah i guess things have

00:54:10.659 --> 00:54:13.099
been pretty quiet on his end so unfortunately

00:54:13.099 --> 00:54:16.559
he's still doing things yeah still in the space

00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:20.320
um okay the next one Well, I guess, first of

00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:22.880
all, do you really set for lead much or do you

00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:26.139
only set for boulder? I do set for lead, not

00:54:26.139 --> 00:54:32.079
loads. I have set a lead World Cup, but I don't

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:36.199
set at that level for lead, really. I mean, I'm

00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:39.519
not really a lead climber. I don't enjoy training

00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.320
for lead very much. I don't enjoy training. It's

00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:44.400
horrible. And so if I were to set a lead comp,

00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:46.519
I'd need to do a lot of training, but I won't

00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:48.730
want to do it. Oh, really? You have to... At

00:54:48.730 --> 00:54:52.269
the moment, yeah. To set at that level, I would

00:54:52.269 --> 00:54:55.190
need to train for lead specifically. Oh, why

00:54:55.190 --> 00:54:57.170
is that? Just from an endurance point of view.

00:54:57.269 --> 00:54:59.949
Like setting boulders, I do maybe two or three

00:54:59.949 --> 00:55:03.050
moves in a row most of the time. Whereas setting

00:55:03.050 --> 00:55:06.030
lead, you need to be doing... I mean, you don't

00:55:06.030 --> 00:55:08.130
need to do the whole route necessarily, but you

00:55:08.130 --> 00:55:11.590
need to be doing bolts, sections at a time. Okay,

00:55:11.849 --> 00:55:13.590
I guess that's true. And I just get really pumped

00:55:13.590 --> 00:55:15.090
really quickly. And then by the time I'm at the

00:55:15.090 --> 00:55:16.590
top of the wall, I can't feel my arms anymore.

00:55:17.050 --> 00:55:21.090
right that's really hard yeah um but like a national

00:55:21.090 --> 00:55:23.809
level i still set leads quite a lot and i kind

00:55:23.809 --> 00:55:25.989
of get away get away with it at that level is

00:55:25.989 --> 00:55:28.070
there like anything else you have to take into

00:55:28.070 --> 00:55:29.929
account differently when setting for lead versus

00:55:29.929 --> 00:55:32.510
boulder it's more about like the challenge is

00:55:32.510 --> 00:55:34.889
quite different for the athletes because they

00:55:34.889 --> 00:55:38.130
only get one attempt so they're like styles of

00:55:38.130 --> 00:55:40.909
climbing you can do a much like the climbing

00:55:40.909 --> 00:55:43.730
has to be much more safe and like trying to remove

00:55:43.730 --> 00:55:46.500
rests and things like that is There's definitely

00:55:46.500 --> 00:55:48.159
different things you have to think about. Okay.

00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:50.420
Well, all that context for this audience question

00:55:50.420 --> 00:55:54.699
from Mr. Baker Adventure. Is there consideration

00:55:54.699 --> 00:55:58.460
for belaying when you're setting or is it just

00:55:58.460 --> 00:56:02.079
good luck to the belayer? There is to an extent.

00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.780
Like obviously we don't want people to hit the

00:56:03.780 --> 00:56:08.280
floor, but also these climbers are so good that

00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.880
we can't, if we have it easy at the start so

00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:14.119
that everyone gets two clips up before the route

00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:17.019
gets hard, then. It just reduces the amount of

00:56:17.019 --> 00:56:20.579
space we have to split the athletes. So it kind

00:56:20.579 --> 00:56:24.480
of has to be hard from the ground. Usually in

00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:27.320
the finals, it's a bit easier at the start because

00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:31.719
the organizer and the crowd like it when people

00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:35.460
are getting high. But particularly for semis

00:56:35.460 --> 00:56:39.519
and qualifiers, it starts straight away because

00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:41.460
it has to because the wall's not tall enough

00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:44.360
and we need to get a split. And there's a lot

00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:46.920
of athletes to split. Obviously, if we're like,

00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:48.519
oh, someone's going to fall off here and hit

00:56:48.519 --> 00:56:51.199
the floor, then we'll probably change it. Or

00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:54.219
put a blue cross. Well, so since there's not

00:56:54.219 --> 00:56:57.719
as much risk needed, do you guys kind of put

00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:02.320
grades on lead routes for comps? Yeah, definitely

00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:05.360
a lot more. Because I think it's a lot easier

00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:09.579
to put a number on it for the experience. Yeah.

00:57:09.780 --> 00:57:12.420
Because obviously they only get one go, but the

00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:14.260
experience is quite similar to just climbing

00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:17.619
a route. It's not the same as bouldering where

00:57:17.619 --> 00:57:20.000
it's so different because of all the pressure

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:22.880
and you've got five minutes and all of these

00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:26.920
things. What would you say like a World Cup lead

00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:29.119
route grade would be for like qualies versus

00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:33.880
semis versus finals? I mean, it's been a few

00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:35.980
years, so it's probably gone up since the last

00:57:35.980 --> 00:57:42.400
one I set. But maybe for women qualifiers like...

00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:48.539
eight b eight b plus and semis finals eight c

00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:53.079
maybe eight c plus and men's qualities are probably

00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:56.340
eight b eight b plus i mean it's pretty similar

00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:58.539
actually between men and women i think it's more

00:57:58.539 --> 00:58:00.639
the style of climbing is different but the grade

00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.380
is not it's not easier and you really think that

00:58:03.380 --> 00:58:07.219
like the difficulty has gone up a lot since a

00:58:07.219 --> 00:58:08.980
couple years ago since when you were setting

00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:11.929
probably yeah i would have thought so I mean,

00:58:11.929 --> 00:58:14.650
this is a guess at what it will be now. Oh, okay,

00:58:14.730 --> 00:58:17.630
gotcha. Yeah, I mean, they're pretty hard. It's

00:58:17.630 --> 00:58:19.730
pretty impressive what they can do. Especially

00:58:19.730 --> 00:58:22.869
after multiple days of doing competitions. Yeah,

00:58:22.949 --> 00:58:26.289
I was thinking about how this season it was like

00:58:26.289 --> 00:58:29.949
back -to -back -to -back competitions. Is that

00:58:29.949 --> 00:58:31.650
something you would keep in mind when you're,

00:58:31.650 --> 00:58:34.969
like, if you were to set for, what was it, Prague

00:58:34.969 --> 00:58:37.800
was the last one of the back -to -backs? Would

00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:40.480
you be keeping in mind that they'll be kind of

00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:42.960
wrecked from that? Or is it kind of expected

00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.760
they will recover fully in the week? Not really.

00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:48.639
Yeah, I think they're pretty good at it. I mean,

00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:51.360
they train six days a week anyway, don't they?

00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:53.920
So they're pretty good at recovering. Maybe it's

00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:56.619
more like the mental exhaustion. No, not really

00:58:56.619 --> 00:58:59.739
factored that in, really. For like a big event,

00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:02.739
like in Innsbruck where there's Lee Danbolder

00:59:02.739 --> 00:59:06.969
or for World Champs last year where... oh it

00:59:06.969 --> 00:59:08.670
might be their sixth day of competition before

00:59:08.670 --> 00:59:12.869
they're doing the boulder final like that might

00:59:12.869 --> 00:59:15.530
come into into play a little bit but then at

00:59:15.530 --> 00:59:17.869
those sort of events not everyone is doing every

00:59:17.869 --> 00:59:20.789
discipline so you can't take it take it for everyone

00:59:20.789 --> 00:59:25.170
okay next one is from uh i like this name filthy

00:59:25.170 --> 00:59:29.250
little crimpsis um how often do you plan problems

00:59:29.250 --> 00:59:35.079
versus improvising i very very rarely have a

00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:37.579
plan before i put holes on the wall usually i'll

00:59:37.579 --> 00:59:39.880
just put something on and then build from there

00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:42.920
every now and then i'll have an idea and then

00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:47.820
i try and find the holes to do it but usually

00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:50.780
at at least at like a world cup world series

00:59:50.780 --> 00:59:55.059
level if you trying to force an idea when you

00:59:55.059 --> 00:59:56.840
don't have the right holds or the right materials

00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:00.880
is really difficult and so usually it comes from

01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:02.989
the holds you've got and it's like oh These are

01:00:02.989 --> 01:00:04.809
the holds. So what can I do with these? Round

01:00:04.809 --> 01:00:06.690
them and the other way around. Usually there's

01:00:06.690 --> 01:00:08.730
a plan of like, this needs to be a power boulder

01:00:08.730 --> 01:00:11.449
or this needs to be coordination. And maybe with

01:00:11.449 --> 01:00:13.849
coordination, there's only so many types of coordination

01:00:13.849 --> 01:00:16.150
moves really. So you might be like, I'm going

01:00:16.150 --> 01:00:18.730
to set one of these, but then it will probably

01:00:18.730 --> 01:00:22.730
evolve and change as it goes on the wall. So

01:00:22.730 --> 01:00:24.849
you don't really like start with like a move

01:00:24.849 --> 01:00:27.949
in mind that you want to like build around? Not

01:00:27.949 --> 01:00:32.239
really. Maybe I move once I've seen what I've

01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:34.199
got or the wall I'm on, I'll be like, oh, I could

01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:36.659
do this move. And then I might set that move

01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:39.239
and then kind of build out from that. But it's

01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:43.079
very rarely a fully formed plan before things

01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:45.920
go on the wall. Okay, good to know. Next one

01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:49.300
is from Henrik without a C. Will the Christmas

01:00:49.300 --> 01:00:52.139
YOLA competition be on this year? And what's

01:00:52.139 --> 01:00:54.280
the design? And what does that mean? I hope so.

01:00:58.380 --> 01:01:01.880
Me and Tom Greenall, who used to be the head

01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:04.880
coach for GB climbing. Yeah. Every year we both

01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:07.139
make a chocolate Yule log and we post it on Instagram

01:01:07.139 --> 01:01:09.820
and people vote on the best one. Oh, okay. At

01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:14.179
Christmas. And we've been doing it, I think 10

01:01:14.179 --> 01:01:16.860
years was this year. Holy crap. Wow. Last Christmas.

01:01:17.380 --> 01:01:21.400
Who's winning like overall? I'm winning overall,

01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:24.639
but Tom has won the last couple of years in a

01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:28.329
row. Uh -oh. I need to get my crown back. Yeah.

01:01:29.010 --> 01:01:32.750
Is it, I've never made a Yule log. It's just

01:01:32.750 --> 01:01:35.369
like a cake, right? It's like a Swiss roll. So

01:01:35.369 --> 01:01:37.989
you bake it and then you roll it up. Oh, okay.

01:01:38.010 --> 01:01:41.130
Yeah. So are you like a big baker otherwise?

01:01:41.690 --> 01:01:44.510
Not really. It's usually the only thing I bake

01:01:44.510 --> 01:01:48.989
in the year. Okay. Gotcha. They also asked, what's

01:01:48.989 --> 01:01:51.489
the design? So like, do you guys have like parameters

01:01:51.489 --> 01:01:55.800
for? what you need to make not really no i've

01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.199
not i've not thought about it yet it's too way

01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.900
too far in advance but i can send you some photos

01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:03.300
if you want to put them somewhere yeah i'll take

01:02:03.300 --> 01:02:05.960
a look yeah or i can put in the video as well

01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:09.659
uh one year i did one that was stood up it was

01:02:09.659 --> 01:02:11.639
like a tree stump but it was stood out of that

01:02:11.639 --> 01:02:15.179
was quite cool yeah the vertical cakes i hear

01:02:15.179 --> 01:02:17.679
are difficult because they have they start to

01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:21.380
like sink and then bubble out in the bottom yeah

01:02:21.380 --> 01:02:24.900
this one with wanting to fall over and it had

01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:26.679
a branch that kept wanting to fall off as well

01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:30.039
yeah send me the photos i would love to see um

01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:32.320
and the very last one i also don't have the context

01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:35.880
for this um well first of all what's house 51

01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:41.300
house 51 was where i used to live with nathan

01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:44.480
phillips tara hayes and billy riedel who were

01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:47.719
like three british comp climbers and then alex

01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:51.860
was also hanging out there as well so this question

01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:54.840
is from orin coley and they asked who was your

01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:59.000
favorite housemate from house 51 i cannot possibly

01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:01.780
answer that question no everyone was it was a

01:03:01.780 --> 01:03:04.780
it was a nice nice place to live i mean the house

01:03:04.780 --> 01:03:08.519
was pretty damp and not the nicest but it was

01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:11.480
it was a good team of people we had a good time

01:03:11.480 --> 01:03:14.599
yeah it was like your classic climber house yeah

01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:20.409
yeah we had a board in the cellar It was good.

01:03:20.909 --> 01:03:23.769
Okay, cool. Well, I think that's all the questions

01:03:23.769 --> 01:03:27.030
I had then. Thanks for joining. Anything we missed?

01:03:27.090 --> 01:03:29.869
Anything that like last minute words of wisdom

01:03:29.869 --> 01:03:32.170
or shout outs that you have? Just keep pushing,

01:03:32.309 --> 01:03:36.050
I guess. But yeah, there's not really a solid

01:03:36.050 --> 01:03:41.090
pathway. I think it's getting there in some places,

01:03:41.150 --> 01:03:44.250
but just keep pushing. Yeah, I guess it depends

01:03:44.250 --> 01:03:48.010
like country to country as well. Okay, want to

01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:50.819
let people know where they can find you? And

01:03:50.819 --> 01:03:54.880
yeah, my Instagram is max underscore Ayrton,

01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.980
A -Y -R -T -O -N. That's kind of the only, I

01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:00.659
don't post very much, so you won't see very much.

01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:04.320
What about like where you tend to set? I don't

01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:06.219
really have a local gym that I set out a lot,

01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:09.920
so I'll be setting in Salt Lake for the World

01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:14.500
Cup series in October. So come watch that if

01:04:14.500 --> 01:04:16.920
you're in the area. Well, hopefully I'll see

01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.139
you there then. I think I will try to make it

01:04:19.139 --> 01:04:23.440
out. So that'll be good. Okay, cool. Well, that

01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:27.219
is all for today then. Thank you again. And it

01:04:27.219 --> 01:04:29.099
was awesome to talk to you. Thanks for having

01:04:29.099 --> 01:04:31.940
me. Thank you for listening to this episode of

01:04:31.940 --> 01:04:34.639
the That's Not Real Climbing Podcast. If you've

01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:36.619
been enjoying the podcast, I would appreciate

01:04:36.619 --> 01:04:39.199
if you like it on YouTube or rate it on your

01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:42.099
podcasting platform. And please leave a comment

01:04:42.099 --> 01:04:45.019
or reach out at any time if you have any thoughts.

01:04:45.179 --> 01:04:48.559
I try to read all of the messages. If you want

01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:51.559
to continue the discussion, join the free competition

01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:54.599
climbing discord where we chat live during the

01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:57.300
World Series comps and talk all things climbing.

01:04:57.599 --> 01:04:59.269
The link is in the description. in the description

01:04:59.269 --> 01:05:00.889
and see you next time.