28: Stanley & Zulazfar, IFSC Event Delegate & Judge

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The coaches will just shout at you, like for no apparent reason, you'll be like,

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what did I do? It wasn't even my fault, you know. Official appeal has money involved.

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So to my knowledge, it's 150 euros, which will be invoiced directly to your national federation.

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In short, they've got somebody with traditional wisdom, which can so-called control the weather.

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So they're like, yeah, it's all fixed. Then we were like, yeah, okay, thank you. But

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the reason we have to cancel the competition was literally if you look at the boulder wall,

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the water is seeping up and you can see that it's literally like the boulder was crying

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through the bolt holes. Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

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I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to announce another double guest episode with Stanley and

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ZulAsfar. Stanley is an IFSC event delegate and judge chair, while Zul is officially a newly

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minted IFSC judge. In this episode, we'll talk about how to become an IFSC judge, hear about

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their relationships and interactions with athletes, coaches, and route setters. And we'll hear some

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crazy stories about their judging experiences under pressure and canceling events due to rain

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like in Cachao. Hope you enjoy this episode with Stanley and Zul. Stanley, you sort of recently got

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back from Paris and also, I think you said Saudi Arabia? Yeah, Saudi Arabia as well.

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How were those travels? Right. So definitely Paris. Well,

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I think we were in the Olympics for the second time, but Tokyo Olympics due to COVID, we've got

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no spectators. So it was really like a closed door event, but Paris is totally different. You

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have the spectators and you have your friends being there. And then we've got some of the

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coaches who are not involved in the Olympics. Some of the event organizers whom we have been

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working with, and even the para-climbing athletes as well, they were also there.

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So it was really like a gathering. Then of course, work relation-wise, we work with,

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it's a very different dynamics in the Olympics compared to the World Cup. In the World Cup,

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the organizers are applying to host the RFSC event. So we have a list of requirements and

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specifications that they need to follow. But in a multi-sport event, it's totally different.

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Us as the RF goes in as one flight, I'll say a vendor who's trying to showcase the sport to

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the world, but the properties belongs to the multi-sport events organization, in this case,

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the IOC. So the dynamics is quite different. Getting things done requires, I'll say, a bigger

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group approval. So it's really very interesting in terms of working with the different stakeholders

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for the two different events compared to the IFC event.

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I heard from Olga, the route setter, that the organization at the Olympics was way

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better than the organization at any World Cup event that she's ever done.

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Definitely. I will say that in terms of the organization, it is really, really good. But of

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course, timeline, the timeliness is something that is very important because the event is so big,

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so prestigious, and the stakes are really high. Think about the VIP slide, the King of Spain that

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is here. So there are certain things that we need to start to learn to tolerate. Like for example,

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we have access to a lounge for the officials, but the lounge is not open until three days

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before the competition starts. The route setting team is there seven to five days before the

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competition to do route setting. So that means that the days before the lounge was open,

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the route setters actually have some challenges trying to bring in additional drinks and food as

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well. So bringing food in is okay, but you can't really bring a big can of energy drinks inside

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because you'll be stopped by the security. So there are certain challenges which we need to,

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we need to re-encounter and that we need to really try to be a bit more understanding

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and work around for these restrictions. In the World Cup, we are used to sometimes having things

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like, oh, if I need to get something, I go buy, I bring it in, it's fine. But here there is

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restriction, there is accessibility, there is certain limitation, which I would say that if

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you are at a multi-sports event, whether it is the Olympics or the Pan American Games,

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the Asian Games, that would always be this restriction that we have to bear in mind

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with someone who's setting. Maybe in the World Cup, you could, if everybody agrees,

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you probably would be able to set until past midnight. But in multi-sports events, probably

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there would be some certain time restrictions that you need to adhere to. So it could be like,

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you probably need to leave by 12 o'clock. Yeah. Because there could be security

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at the end of each day. So all this has to be coordinated. And when we look at a broader view,

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it's not just us working, but it's like probably 101 teams that is actually working to ensure that

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the event runs. There's a lot of protocols as well, right? So I think I just want to touch

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quickly a bit on the OQS. So I think a couple of people were watching on stream and they were like,

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why do they have tapes all over their uniforms, right? It's like all covering the North Face

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logos and all that. And it's all because of this. It's all protocol. And yeah, and that's like the

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last minute thing. Oh, we can't be showing this, so you better tape it up. So I think it's pretty

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normal in that sense. But of course for Paris, it's slightly different because you already have

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a new set of uniforms. So that, yeah. And I think to touch on that also, actually in the IBSC World

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Cups and all that, they have specifications as to how big your logo can be. So yeah, there are

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different rulings for that. So it's not just, oh, you can just slap one full blockface logo

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on the back and that's it. Okay. And then we'll get into the Olympics a bit more later as well,

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but I guess before we dive too deep into things, what roles do you each have in the IFSC and what

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do you do for your role? For me, I'm an event delegate with the IFSC. So I work closely with

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the event organizing team to manage the climbing competitions. I mainly look at

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the pre-planning, the logistics and facilities of the event. So my work would usually be taking

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place one or two months before the IFSC World Cup takes place. When the event starts,

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it's more for the jury president who will be managing the overall competition. Then during

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the competition, a big part of my role would be working with the broadcasting team and the award

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ceremony team to make sure that everything goes according to the requirements of the IFSC.

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I am the IFSC judge, so nearly third, I guess, this year officially. For the longest time,

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I was doing a lot more continental events. But this year, I've done at least one World Cup,

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going to another one in a couple of weeks' time, for that to be specific.

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Okay, nice.

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Yeah. So basically, I'm the IFSC judge. It's very different from what Stanley does. So he does a lot

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of pre-planning, behind-the-scenes kind of thing. For me, a lot more front-facing. So I deal mainly

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on the fill-out plate, what you call FOP. That's literally the area around the wall,

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the coaches area, every single thing or structure there is under my control. That includes dealing

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with appeals directly with your coaches, right? So primarily, my job would be to supervise the

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national technical officials, or whether you're national judges, and so forth, right?

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So it's more on a supervisory role where they, for let's say, for qualifications and semifinals,

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they typically do the actual judging. I'm just going to oversee, supervise, let's say they have

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any questions, or let's say some coach can tell me and say, hey, I think your spelling is wrong.

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Maybe there's a data input issue or whatsoever, and that's where I will go in to rectify.

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So from a hierarchy point of view, I report to the jury president, which is now an IFSC Level 4

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Judge. And I guess, Stanley, did you used to judge? I thought there was some sort of relation there.

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Right. Yeah. So sorry. So other than being an event delegate for the IFSC, I'm also the chair

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for the IFSC Judge Commission. The Asian Council, the sports department, in the development of

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competitions and officials in Asia. Yeah. So a bit more about me. I was a national judge

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back in 2004 in Singapore. That's where the federation decided to invite then the

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head of the Roots Commission from IFSC. IFSC was still part of UIDA to conduct

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the national judge course. Fast forward one year later,

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the international judge course was organized in Austria. So I went to take

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the course. I passed the test and I had to do two practicum. So you have to cover the project speed

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in two competitions. My lead speed is the youth world championship in Beijing. That was the first

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time where the youth world championship was held in Asia. And then in 2006, I completed my

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world championship in Birmingham, UK. Yeah. So after that, that's where I became an IFSC judge.

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So I came through the IFSC judge track, like what Sue is currently doing. So from

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2016, 2017, I was IFSC jury president. And also in 2021, I became the IFSC event delegate.

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Okay. So we'll get into the timeline of how that works in a bit. But I guess starting from the

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beginning, this is kind of like a volunteer position. So what made you guys interested in

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joining? I'll let you go first. Okay. So it's got quite a long history and story in that sense where

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basically back then. Okay. So you mentioned, Sandy mentioned it started around 2004. That was

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literally the year I started climbing. Literally. All right. That's a good 20 years ago, two decades

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ago. So I started climbing when I was in secondary school, which is your equivalent of a high school,

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I believe. It was just like a co-curricular activity. Just go there and climb. It was

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what an outdoor club kind of thing. And then, so that was a good four years. So once I ended

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that four years of high school, I went to polytechnic. It's like, that's where I got

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my diploma basically. And that was technically where I actually met Stefis. Right. So it's more

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of like, so I mean, aside from timeline itself, so a good six years about after I started climbing.

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So 2008, I was part of the climbing club in polytechnic. So what happened was the one day

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they'll be like, we have a national judges course. It's free. Do you want to attend?

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I'm like, oh, okay, sure. Why not? Like, I mean, it's free. So Singaporeans like, please start.

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And then we're like, okay. So we took it. I think the cohort was pretty huge. There was a good 10,

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15 of us. But ironically, only two of us. So again, I think to your question, I think

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after a while, we've been doing, so once we cleared the national judges course, right,

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so we did what we could, we clocked our mileage. And then over time, we'll be like,

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I think we can kind of see the same for some others. For one, back then, eight years ago,

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two or 10 years ago, the climbing industry was not as commercialized as it is today.

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So it's almost like the only thing you can do. It was the only hobby you can have. It was so

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niche. Everyone was like, oh wow, you're a rock climber, you're a sport climber. Everyone gets

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so excited when they hear about it. But then now we'd be like, everyone's climbing. Now climbing

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is like the new spin class, right? To be really honest, right? But more importantly, I felt that

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on my own, on my personal level, I was thinking like, you know what, if I really invested so much

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time in this, why not just go all the way? And I think from a voluntary perspective, I spent,

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ever since I started working, I spent a good three-quarters of my paid time off,

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or your annual leave, all on climbing competitions. It's a lot of dedication,

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a lot of sacrifice for sure. But I think at the end of the day, it depends on what you want.

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I think some people, to be really honest, I just want to apply and call it a day,

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have fun, jump here, jump there. That's about it. But I think on my end, I think one of the

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most important motivations for me, it's also to bring the sport to the next level.

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I think we always have this issue in Asia specifically, right? We're always trying to

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go after the Europeans, not in a bad way, but the Europeans are always known to be at the top of

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their level for climbing, for example. So we kind of want to reach there to some extent. Of course,

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we have our usual superstars like your Sogato, your Tomoa and all that, but that's on an athlete

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level, but we're looking more on a continent level. So I think it's pushing the standards

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also nationally on a local level. Of course, we're not as big as like the USA, but then

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there's a lot of, I would say there's a lot of resistance to change for sure. Commercial gym

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owners only think about money most of the time. I mean, you are a business owner, I cannot blame

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you, but then to them, it'd be like, how do I balance between making money and also pushing

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the standards of climbing in Singapore, for example. So there's a lot of different variables,

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a lot of factors, but I think more often than not, it's always to push the standards.

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And let's go in.

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Well, so Zhu mentioned earlier, he was studying in Polytechnic. So that's a college in Singapore

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that offers diploma programs. Interestingly, 25 years ago, I was in that position in that same

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college. So climbing was really new back then. We were one of two tertiary institutions

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that were organizing climbing competitions back then. So I started to get involved. We

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have annual competitions, Rockmania. I started to get involved. I was helping out with judging work

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as an assistant. From there, I start to look at climbing, not just as climbing, but as an event

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itself. I got really curious about the concept behind the rules, how the competitions are managed.

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So yeah, I started to really look and start to learn from people that I've known. My mentor,

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Diamwat. So he was back then considered a national judge because he's like the

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pioneer batch who received training from the French Federation. So Singapore invited the

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French Federation to be here to actually conduct training from them. So I had to learn a lot from

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him until the opportunity came that, hey, we are getting, the Federation is getting the

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Rules Commission, Mr. Okay Nelson, to be here to conduct a judge training course.

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And so it's a good opportunity for me to actually learn more.

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So throughout the process, it's always about trying to learn more and

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seeing how I can contribute, but without really a clear destination at night. It's like, I'm just

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happy to be involved because from the training course, from the competitions, you meet people

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who share the same interests with you. You work with people who are aligned to develop the sports

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of climbing. So that was the thing that just kept me going, going, and going until now.

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For people who may be interested in getting involved in some way,

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do you have to know someone or is there a clear process for how to,

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I guess, become involved at an IFSC level or a judging level?

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To start off with judging, I would suggest that go to the Provincial National Federation. I believe

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National Federation would have organized some training course. They would probably have a

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development roadmap for the judges, the skills framework. That's the best way to start.

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Different federations would have different levels of the judge structure. We over here in Singapore,

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we have two. Now that the US, you have five different levels. So depending on the geographic

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location and the requirement. So for the candidate to be eligible for the IFSC course,

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you probably would need to be at the highest level. I know that every now and then, IFSC would

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communicate to the national federations about any upcoming national IFSC judge courses.

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We had two this year. Was it this year or last year? Last year, one was held in Singapore for

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the Asian and Oceania prospects, and the other one was held in Pan America in preparation for

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the Santiago games as well. Yeah. So the national federation should have the information. Then they

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will then look into the list of officials. They probably would have an evaluation system in place

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to evaluate and see who can I send for this training course. If you cleared the training

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course, you will have a theoretical course and there will be some internship where you will be

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working as a trainee IFSC judge in the competitions. If the assessment is favorable,

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then that's where you become an IFSC judge level one. So the level one IFSC judge would allow you

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to be working as equivalent of IFSC judge in a continental event. Level two would be a jury

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president level working in the continental events. For the IFSC judges that are nominated for the

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World Cup, they are sitting at level three and the jury presidents at level four.

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And Zul, you're kind of, I guess, newer to doing official IFSC judging.

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Is there anything that kind of surprised you about judging at the IFSC level?

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The difference between IFSC and any other level is, of course,

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we always train our judges in such a way that we tell them, like, you are running a show

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and you are running a show because why you have live streaming, right? It's, you'll

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scroll up, you'll scroll up on the live stream for the world to see, literally. And I think

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that is one biggest factor with regards to all the differences of all the events. Of course,

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sure you can see nationals may have their own live screenings and so on and so forth, but

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I think the spectators and online viewers looking or watching your live stream or

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work out is a lot more significant, obviously, right? So, and it's also where you don't end up

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becoming a laughingstock online for some reason. Well, there's not, I don't think there's too many

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opportunities to become a, to really mess up too bad as a judge, are there?

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Yes. Well, I guess, yeah, maybe.

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But I mean, I think we can talk a lot, a bit more later about appeals and all that. I think that

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would be the most obvious way of screwing up, right? But I think at the IBSC level, it's,

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you're dealing with people who you've never met. Of course, if I'm from Asia,

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obviously I've met Asian coaches, right? But then you're dealing with the Americans,

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the Europeans, China, all the different continents and all that. So these people

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are literally strangers to you. So you don't know them, they don't know you.

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And it's been, I wouldn't say it's a, it's an open secret in that sense, but rather,

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they probably tested, right? They will try to see whether, oh, is this, so this guy is new.

00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:02,480
So can I actually take advantage of him? Like, can I make his life a little bit simple?

00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,520
Sketchy. Okay.

00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,600
Yeah. So you learn how Stanley's laughing. So that's evident that it happens, right? And I

00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:18,240
think that happens throughout. I mean, to put it very, very bluntly, your, it gets,

00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:25,920
it's really unforgiving. It can be, it's a lot of pressure. Every competition has its

00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:33,440
pressure for sure. But on a World Cup level, I think it's immense, right? Because, I mean,

00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:40,800
maybe it's also the, it's a personal thing. Like I don't want to make mistakes. It's a

00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,720
self-imposed kind of thing. But then, I mean, I personally always try to strive for the best

00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,960
anyway. So, yeah, it's a lot of things to worry about, basically.

00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:59,120
Yeah. Do you remember a time where you felt like a coach was taking advantage of you,

00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:00,720
or trying to pull something?

00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:07,440
Oh, yeah, sure. But sure, yeah. I think it's not, let's say,

00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:17,440
taking advantage in that sense where I think they will constantly breathe down your neck.

00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,240
They will be always asking for certain things, like, hey, can you do this? Can you do that?

00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,680
They probably tell you this, ask you to see whether will you actually abide to it, or will

00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:34,880
you actually, I guess, contest and go against his words and say, no, we're not going to do that,

00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,520
that sort of thing. I mean, basically, they're trying to see whether you can be a pushover,

00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,720
right? And then at the same time, there are certain instances where they'll be like,

00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:54,240
say, hey, this is a high-profile sitcom. Why are you doing this? It's like, there's a reason why

00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:00,400
I'm doing this, you know? And then at the same time, there are coaches who will just shout at

00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,960
you, like for no apparent reason, you'd be like, what did I do? It wasn't even my fault, you know?

00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,640
But it's just in the spur of the moment, right? At the end of the day, we have to understand that

00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,320
I think the worst thing is we cannot take it personally. And I think that is a very key,

00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:24,560
important trait that judges should have because at the end of the day, these people are coaches,

00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:31,760
they are in charge of athletes and they want the best out of the athletes. It's a condition,

00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:37,600
for goodness sake. It's like, it's not the carnival, right? So, and then of course,

00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,360
they will be shouting at you and all that, but then once the event is done, then you'd be like,

00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,920
hey, you can talk to them as well. Okay, that's nice.

00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,680
And that's the beauty of it, right? But then of course, sometimes there needs to be that,

00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:58,480
you could say you may start on the wrong foot for some of them, right? But then after that,

00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,840
you'd be like, then maybe after the call, maybe you can talk to them, kind of iron out the things

00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,000
and say, oh, I see you did this because of this, this, this. Sometimes, because at the end of the

00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,560
day, you have to understand that they are also kind of gated at where they are, where they're

00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:19,360
seated. They have a coach's ear and they only see whatever they see, right? They don't know

00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:26,240
our perspective and neither do we, right? We could have the freedom to walk all over the place,

00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:33,440
but then they're only in one place. And considering some of them are in isolation for a couple of

00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,760
hours, they'd be like grumpy old men or whatever. So maybe not old, some of them are quite young.

00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,120
So anyway, you get my point, right? So yeah. You probably have more grumpy men than women.

00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:59,200
So is there one more event? Yeah. So I think the pressure, I think if I had to summarize the

00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:07,440
pressure on, at doing IFA Sydney Awards, it's immense. You don't want to screw up, that's one.

00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:14,000
And then at the end of the day, you want to have a good show. But more importantly, because for me,

00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:22,720
people always say that like, oh, okay, you're an IFSC judge and all that. But then I say,

00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:29,040
you don't know the amount of things I sacrificed to get to where I am. That's one. And doesn't quite

00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,960
help when you're training under this guy. So it's like, oh, so you know Stanley? It's like,

00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,000
yeah, you know Stanley? Yes, I do. And then you'd be like, oh, Stanley. And then suddenly immediately

00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,520
for some reason, there's this ceiling of expectations, which I've never seen before.

00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,600
And then you'd be like, oh, okay, I guess I have to meet that ceiling there. Yeah. So that's one

00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:58,000
thing that a lot of people don't realize. But to be clear, I got to where I am based on my own

00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,920
merits as well. Right. So he did what he could, but there's no nepotism or whatever. I just want

00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:13,200
to make it clear on record. Okay. So Stanley's tough. Gotcha. Yeah. Do you remember any times

00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:20,160
where you feel like you made a wrong call or that you messed up? So I think for me, before I got

00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:30,960
promoted to IFSC, I had to do two assessments. So one of it was the Salt Lake City competition

00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:39,680
World Cup in 2023, last year. And also one multi-sport event, which is our continental

00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,920
games, which is Asian Games, last year as well. So two events as part of my assessment.

00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,560
Largely, I would say Asian Games are still okay.

00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:00,640
But Salt Lake City, I wouldn't say it's a swap, let's say, because actually there was an appeal

00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:09,760
involved, right? So I'll send you the timestamps later, I already have it prepared. So it was

00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:16,000
during the men's boulder finals, and then of all people, it had to be Soweto, right?

00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:26,560
First time seeing this down the circuit, and then anyway. So it wasn't, okay, objectively,

00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:34,160
it's a normal appeal. Objectively, it's a normal appeal because why it's just like, okay,

00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:43,840
the judge made a wrong call, which was me. I can admit that. But then what made it a bit more

00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,720
serious in that sense was because the commentators spent like a good

00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:56,560
three to five minutes talking about how the feeling was. Yeah, so I think no shit on the

00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:03,200
commentators for sure. Megan Martin was the co-co-commentary, right? So she was saying,

00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:09,200
oh no, I'm a bit surprised why the judge did not produce blah, blah, blah. And then, of course,

00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,760
she did justify and said like, you know, look, I'll join this and all that. And it's just perfectly

00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,640
fine. It's just that when I look at the score screen, I was like bloody hell, it's a good five

00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:28,640
minutes talking about my opinion. But what was interesting is that, so that was one main thing.

00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:38,960
It kind of bound me for sure. But I think the key thing that happened was, so basically the

00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:45,840
gist of it, the gist of the appeal was that, so I went to do a four point start, but it was so fast

00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:52,720
that I didn't catch it. So I deemed it as a proper four point start. So later on, when you look at

00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:59,120
the video, you will see the actual screen, which is on a one time speed, which is normal. And then

00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:05,200
there's another timestamp which they give on the slow-mo version. And even after looking at the

00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:11,680
slow-mo version, it's kind of like, okay. But long story short, what happened was, why I didn't

00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,880
calm him down was because at my angle, I saw him as a proper four point start.

00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:24,640
So my start of judging, four finals, so for context, qualification, semifinals, IFSC judge,

00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:31,040
do not do the judging. Physically, you're doing more on a supervisory role, but on a final,

00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:39,280
you need to do the extra judging. So at least at one time in Salt Lake City, SLC, what we did was,

00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:47,680
so I was judging with all the other USKC judges. So I believe, I'm not too sure whether you know,

00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,080
but they have this system where you have a primary, secondary, tertiary judge. So there

00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,440
were four of us, in fact, five, I think, and these are all senior judges together with me

00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:04,320
judging, right? So my style, for finals at least, it differs from judges to judges, obviously.

00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:10,160
So my style is like, okay, the moment the SC gets a zone, depending on the attempt at Salt Lake City,

00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,200
I will just voice out and say, zone on two, meaning that the person gets a zone on the

00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,280
second attempt, because sometimes your attempt might be mismatched. Maybe the top was three,

00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:26,320
mine was two, one, so on and so forth, right? So that's my style. So when that thing happened,

00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,560
so obviously we were also taken aback. I was like, eh, what's with the delay? And then I was like,

00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,560
okay, next thing you know, I was like that. And at that point in time, the JV was team hatched

00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,400
for Britain, and it was like, came out, it was like, there's going to be a build, so you're going

00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,320
to send my like, okay. So I'm like, in my head, I was like, shit, which build is this? And then

00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:54,320
after that, when they came out, whether when he reclaimed and all that, I just took that brief

00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,480
moment to check with my judges, like, do you actually see him start? Then all of us agreed

00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,400
that we saw him start properly. It's just that it was so fast to the naked eye, you couldn't see.

00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:16,320
I'm like, okay, I mean, to be fair, the JP was reviewing the video on a CCTV, which had like,

00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,080
I don't know, 10 times slow-mo function, which, I mean, come on, man, if I could be a Terminator,

00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,520
then yeah, maybe I should do that. Other than that, but you know, at the end of the day,

00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:36,000
this kind of things, shit happens. And I wouldn't say I'm happy. I'm okay to admit that I

00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,400
potentially did that mistake or maybe I did that mistake, but I think it's sometimes it's almost

00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,040
inevitable, but then more importantly, well, what's the takeaway, right? So what do you learn

00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:56,400
from that? So I was also considering looking at the stream itself. And now I was realizing,

00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:03,360
actually, it could be potentially because of the position we were sitting, right? So like,

00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:10,320
let's say the wall is here. We are seated at maybe a 45 degree angle. It could be from the stream,

00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:18,160
it looked like it didn't start. So that could be it. Or maybe the solution was just to have

00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:24,720
me sit on the left side, for example. And moving forward, that's what I've been doing since day one.

00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,440
So it's like, yeah, you kind of learn from all this. So yeah, it's like, well, it happens.

00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,600
Can't wait to watch it back and see what it looks like.

00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,720
Yeah. Stanley, anything from your side on any time you fucked up?

00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:49,920
Well, I think judging-wise, it's been a long time because I haven't really been doing a lot of

00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:58,080
judging. If you ask me now, I don't really recall. But honestly, every time after a competition,

00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:05,920
on the way to the airport, on the plane, I've always been just reflecting on myself like,

00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:12,720
okay, is there something that I could have done better in this case?

00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:18,640
Yeah. So even by working with the stakeholders, it's going back as, okay, I think this decision,

00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:25,600
is this the right decision? Would I have done it better if given the chance?

00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:33,280
So yeah, that is constantly that process. But even if there's things that I think that I did

00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:40,560
right, again, it's also to just think about it. Yeah. So for me, at this point, not so much

00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:46,320
judging related decisions that I can call. Yeah.

00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:56,080
Okay. So judging is also kind of closely connected to route setting because how they

00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:01,920
set up the zones and the tops kind of makes a difference in terms of how you're going to judge

00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,920
it. Is there anything that you hate that route setters do?

00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,520
Wow. That's a really interesting question.

00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:16,400
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00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:23,440
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00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,880
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00:39:51,440 --> 00:40:01,120
To be honest, too many coordinations. When you have a coordination group, there's a lot of jumping or

00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,320
jump starts specifically, and maybe it's just a preference thing. So it's like we have a

00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:14,400
score sheet, or maybe nationally we have a physical score sheet, but then on the IFC level,

00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,960
you have a template, right? So it'd be like, each time a person jumps, it's like slapping and

00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:29,120
tapping and tapping and tapping. It's like 20 different attacks. So that's probably one of it.

00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:36,160
But I think largely, maybe Stanley would have a different perspective on this, but because I'm

00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:44,480
working on the realm itself, I think it's not inherently something that I dislike or I hate,

00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:52,720
but I think it's more of finding that compromise most of the times. So it could be as simple as,

00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:59,840
because sometimes the route setters tend to think of it from a move's point of view. Like,

00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:10,080
okay, this move, that move. But for us, we need to make that zone, or let's say for lead, right?

00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:17,040
It has to be tangible because you have to show or rather allocate a specific point or number to it.

00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,840
So some of them will be like, oh, okay, but this move, I need to do this, I need to match,

00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,520
and then therefore this becomes a dual hold. For dual holds, basically the judge is like, man,

00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:35,040
because the moment that dual hold gets broken, it's going to change the world effectively,

00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,600
right? Of course, it might be a simple change, just a reduction of one number, but then

00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:46,400
once appeals come in, and then you'll be like, oh, okay, so there's another hold. But long story

00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:55,280
short, I think there are certain things that they do in terms of word setting where I think they,

00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:06,560
again, I think Solid City had this issue where they tried to do some kind of indication on the

00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:13,840
route about how they should start the route. I can't find that video. I need to find it.

00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:22,000
So basically, I think they wanted somebody to kind of do a four-point start,

00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,960
like in a handstand kind of start. I don't know how that works, but so what they did was they

00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:41,120
fixed four or five screw-on holes in the shape of a man, like an inverted man doing a handstand.

00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,440
It's almost like an indication of how to start. I don't remember this at all.

00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,680
I didn't know about it, interestingly, because I was so busy running around.

00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:55,120
And then only after the event, they were saying, oh, actually, they actually changed the route.

00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,160
I'm like, what do you mean they changed the route? I was there the whole time. How did I not know?

00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:08,160
Maybe once I get that footage, I'll probably send it to you. But sometimes they do things

00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:17,280
very funnily or in their own ways, I guess. Yeah. But I think no, no, no props to them for sure.

00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:23,440
They have an office job for sure. And this is also why they get paid a lot more than we do.

00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:29,120
But I think fundamentally, I don't hate them, to be really honest. It's always nice working with

00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,160
them. I think it's always the compromises that you have to take. Like, okay, can we do this instead?

00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:41,840
Can we tape it? Can we tape the zone on the channel hole instead of the volume? For example,

00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:48,320
maybe, you know, it could be the nuances of certain things. Like, what if I do this move,

00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:54,800
my leg swings and I touch on this, can this be avoided? Or even down to a simple as,

00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:01,280
can we shift that mic nearer? Would it hit the athlete's interface? That sort of thing. So,

00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:07,680
it's a lot of communication involved, but I wouldn't say inherently that's the thing that

00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:17,840
you realize. Yeah. Well, working with the group setter, sometimes people may deem it as what I

00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:29,040
call the full relationship thing. We're here trying to make sure that we follow the protocol,

00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,880
the requirements, the rules. The setters are a bunch of really creative people. I really admire

00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:46,320
their creativity. So, it's more of like, where does this creativity has a limit? Because what

00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:53,840
Zhou said earlier, they're trying their best to come up with original moves. We're actually judging,

00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,520
we're actually joking about, are there any more original moves that the setters can make?

00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,720
Yeah. So, yes, it's really cool if you really can come up with something that is unique,

00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:12,320
really original. But there are times where things get a bit off, and even to some of the coaches,

00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,640
it's like, hey, what is this? This is not really climbing. It's not hardcore. It's a bit like

00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:29,360
circus. So that is where sometimes we need to come in and again, be the moderator. Sometimes

00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:36,480
to check like, okay, do you think this is appropriate? Likewise, speaking for the jury

00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,240
president and the judges, it's like, okay, the starting position, the zone, is that appropriate?

00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:49,280
Or can we just make some changes to the zone? Maybe this is not that easy to judge,

00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,800
or we foresee certain problems with the zone. Are we able to move around?

00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,520
And actually having a discussion with them, I would say most of them are actually quite

00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:08,320
self-dating. Yeah. So working with the IFSC setters is quite interesting because, well,

00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,120
you think that they are a bunch of people who's always working with metal screws and looking at

00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:19,040
wood, right? And maybe they think like, well, actually they are not. They don't just go around

00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,640
just doing resetting work. I find that a lot of them are actually very insightful.

00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:29,360
They are very knowledgeable. Some of them, we had very interesting discussion about talking

00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:35,520
about the sustainability of the flamming industry because, you know, with the holes and everything,

00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:40,480
after 10 years, if you have a gym after 10 years, after 15 years, what do you do about those?

00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:47,760
How to, yeah, can it be recycled? So the IFSC setters, I realized that a lot of them are

00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:56,720
actually thinking very far ahead, yeah, beyond their technical skills. What I realized are the

00:46:56,720 --> 00:47:06,160
challenges of working with receptors that are starting out and are starting to developing

00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:13,840
into or aspiring to be IFSC receptors. Because many a times what they see is they just see

00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:25,840
what is on YouTube, what's on the big screen, and they start to mimic without really thinking or

00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:34,960
asking why. And that's where problem comes in. It's like when we are doing in local competitions,

00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,280
when we realize something that's a bit off, we start to ask question. It's like,

00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:49,760
it can't really have a concrete rationale to why they do that. And makes it very difficult,

00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:59,040
especially when it is something that pertains to safety, where do you think this is safe?

00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,800
Example, if you have a volume, you only have up and the volume is on the sidewalk, and you only

00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:11,760
have half the volume secured on the climbing wall, and the other half that is exposed. To me,

00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:22,080
it is a safety hazard that could have been avoided. So this is not talking about a

00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:30,800
technical, sorry, this is not about just a route safety issue anymore. It's about a general safety

00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:38,080
issue. So people say, oh, but so-and-so does this, so-and-so does that, so-and-so stack up volumes

00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:48,560
on volumes on volumes. Yeah, but when you ask people, you realize that they probably only know

00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:55,440
this much, and that is actually a challenge with us. And sometimes when we try to talk to them,

00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:03,920
they will probably look at us, oh, so are you trying to impose what you have learned from

00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,720
IFSC competitions to the local competition, but it's two different standards. So it's like,

00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,680
we are not talking about standards here, but we are talking about general safety.

00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:19,280
Yeah, so that is the challenge that I realized working with new aspiring route setters.

00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:24,800
So yeah, that's sort of like the relationship with route setters. And then in terms of your

00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:30,000
relationship with coaches, I guess, first of all, how does the appeals process work?

00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:35,120
And then we'll get into your angry coach stories or whatever you have there.

00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:40,640
And maybe I'll take this one. So yeah, so okay, I think first and foremost,

00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:50,080
on any level, at the very least, you have two types of appeals. One, your verbal appeal,

00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:56,560
or rather unofficial appeal, and your official appeal. So verbal appeals are typically

00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:05,840
during the round itself. So let's say during qualifications, they realize their athletes got

00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,680
wrong score, maybe not number of attempts different, so on and so forth. So the coach

00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:19,760
can come to me and say, I think there's a mistake with my climber. So I think you should be getting,

00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:25,520
let's say if it's a lead event, and she should be getting a plus, and they'll be like, oh, okay.

00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:33,360
So sometimes it is an actual error on our end, or the judges end, because it's manual input

00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:38,320
on the tablet, right? So privacy to use the tablet, which links to the verticalized system.

00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:45,040
So it could be like, oh, actually I forgot to put a plus inside. Obviously on my end,

00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:51,280
so I have to check, is this 25 plus, or is it 25? Your paper puts 25 plus, but on this

00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:57,120
live score, it says 25. So that's where I rectify, right? So that is your kind of verbal appeal. So

00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:04,160
it's a bit more casual, right? Or it could be as simple as, oh, I think that delay is giving too

00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:14,320
much slack. So that counts as verbal appeal in that sense, right? So I think for that context,

00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:20,240
in the rules, there's also the safety appeal, which can be done by three coaches,

00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:25,600
separate coaches. If they write in and say there is a safety appeal, we must act on it. The JPSO,

00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:32,720
right? Basically, this doesn't happen most of the time. Anyways, so officials, then you have

00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:38,080
your official appeal. So official appeal is basically after the event ends, that's where

00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:46,800
you require to submit your appeal form with your name, which country you're representing.

00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:53,440
If there's a particular box, I can send you a link where to see this actual form, the ones

00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:59,920
that the coaches are actually using it. You have to indicate the reason why. So and so, let's say,

00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:09,760
for example, using the example, my athlete so-and-so should be getting a 25 plus. And on top of that,

00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:17,440
they have to quote the article number in the rulebook based on whatever result. So let's say,

00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:27,600
oh, based on article number so-and-so, the primers shifted, there was a change in mass of

00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,640
heaps, moving the direction of the route, progressive movement of the route, so on, so forth.

00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:40,320
And therefore, we should be getting a 25 plus, for example. And then you have to sign and submit.

00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:48,960
So official appeal for qualification and semifinals is within five minutes. For finals,

00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,840
it's immediate. So for finals, because it's podium, right, you're talking like money,

00:52:53,840 --> 00:53:00,960
he pays money and so on, so forth. So more often than not, some athletes, some coaches,

00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:07,760
they will tell you in advance, I'm going to appeal. I'm like, okay, then because that appeal

00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:14,800
decision would be against my decision, so I wouldn't be entertaining, right? So what happens

00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:20,960
would be, some of them will give you the heads up, that's one. Some of them will be already

00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:34,080
written down there. It's like DHL. So official appeal has money involved. So to my knowledge,

00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,760
it's 150 euros, which will be- Oh, that's pretty expensive.

00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:46,640
Yes, it's about, it's $150, which will be invoiced directly to your national federation

00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:55,600
once it's approved. So in that event where the appeal fails, it's rejected basically,

00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:00,880
you lose the 150 euros. And so then what's your relationship like

00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:06,320
with coaches? Do you feel like they ever hold grudges against you if they remember who you are?

00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,800
Do you know of any coaches that will just cause you a lot of trouble?

00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:18,560
I think we are still alive here. So I guess that the relationship should be considered quite cordial.

00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:30,480
It depends. So I think, again, to be fair, I'm new, so I'm still building, I'm still on the way

00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:35,440
to build that rapport. I mean, unlike Stanley, he already knows all these people and he's also

00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:41,360
not really doing the judging part. But for me, I'm still making my way there. I'm trying to make

00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:47,440
came to contact, network with them, talk to them. It's my first time to introduce myself after the

00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:53,600
con and all that. But thankfully, there are separate coaches, which obviously from the Asian

00:54:53,600 --> 00:55:00,720
region, because every other time we look at them. So let's say for Team Japan, everyone loves Team

00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:10,400
Japan. Obviously, I know the coaches, they also know me. And sometimes I don't believe I have any

00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:18,320
needs, or rather no coach sent to have any guys just with me, from what I know. But I think the

00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:26,560
relationship-wise can be easy if you know them. That's the thing, because I think there's a lot

00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,680
of relationship involved in that sense where not like a boyfriend-girlfriend kind of thing, but

00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:38,240
more like mutual respect. Because sometimes they can hook up to you and be like,

00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:48,560
Oh wait, my guy forgot his accreditation card. Okay, sure. But you don't immediately penalize

00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:53,360
them in that sense. You know, like you kind of, okay, you take note that I'll do what I can,

00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:59,520
you know. And then for example, I'll give you a very clear example of what happened

00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:06,720
in, again, Sonic City, again with Team Japan. So Higoshi-san, the head coach for Team Japan,

00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:16,000
was sitting at the bench, one of the coaches. So one of his athletes, the Japanese athlete, was

00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:24,480
gonna talk the route, although I was climbing, there was a side wall that had a boundary tape

00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:33,680
right below the handhold. So what happened was like, my judge went up, and obviously she went

00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:39,920
over the line, so obviously had to call her up down, then my judge came to tell her, call her

00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:46,480
off basically, right. And for some strange reason, I happened to make eye contact with him,

00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:55,040
and all I did was like, lying like that, he was like, life goes on after that. It can be that

00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,760
simple, you know, but there are courses where you'll be like, there's blood on the towel,

00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,600
why are you not cleaning it? You'll be like, okay, let's go, I'm not a cleaner, but okay,

00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:14,160
I will work on that. It can get very different for certain coaches, but yeah, I think it's

00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:19,360
trying to find that balance, I guess. Most of them are trying to get that balance to me.

00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:34,880
For me, my current work is really, let's say, doing things that make the coaches' lives a bit easier

00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:47,440
and manageable. So things that I'm looking at is accessibility to the facilities, for example,

00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:53,920
doing properties like Forbidden, the World Championship last year. We've got so many

00:57:53,920 --> 00:58:00,960
assets, we've got so many coaches, team officials, but again, the coach corridor is a little bit

00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:09,840
so differently. We can't always have everybody in, likewise the isolation area as well.

00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:16,560
So that's where having to, my job, my role is to sit down with the organizing committee to really

00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:22,960
work out, to find out what's the best solution that we could do, because if the space is not

00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:30,000
big enough, then we unfortunately have to limit the number of officials to be in so that

00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:39,600
all countries can be in that area. So it's a lot about crowd control, access management for me,

00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:49,600
making sure that the facilities are met. So definitely I have to be able to be

00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:58,640
trying to strike a win-win between the organizer and the coaches. Sometimes they can understand,

00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:08,000
but sometimes it's not easy. But again, I can imagine why they need certain things, for example.

00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:20,080
So that is the part that is always a challenge for me in competition. After evaluating,

00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:27,360
if I have to say no, I'm sure I have to say no. If I could work something out,

00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:35,040
I try to work something out. For example, this year, what was the first event again?

00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:44,000
Kejian Ao Workout. Yeah. So say the security was really strict.

00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,240
I was there. Yeah.

00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:52,960
Your umbrellas. Yeah. Umbrellas, water bottles, everything has to be left outside the gate.

00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,800
So it's like, yeah, the coaches were in. They can't have umbrellas.

00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:03,280
But you could have rain jacket. Yeah, but I can use a rain jacket for our video cameras.

01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,760
It's like, okay, yes, you make a point. So I have to go and talk to the umbrella and say,

01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,880
look, we need umbrella. Because they have to do that and they have to cover it.

01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:19,840
So we have that discussion and finally, okay, everybody, you can take your umbrella in so

01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:28,480
everybody's happy. So there are things like this that I have to go with and resolve it.

01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,080
So it could be something that's very minute, but actually it's quite significant.

01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:39,520
So yeah, so my role has taken quite a very different role from that. And also I do my

01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:45,680
role well, probably they have a better experience prior to the round starts that may translate to

01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,760
them feeling a bit better and a bit friendlier to our friend here.

01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Yeah, it sounds like you get a lot of abuse.

01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:03,280
But to be fair, to be honest, they are really very nice. I mean, to be able to challenge

01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:10,880
the judges and to make the judges scratch their head and watch the video over and over again,

01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:19,280
I think there is merit to what they are fighting for. And with that comes a lot of knowledge. So

01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:26,080
again, I really admire them that they are not just coaching, coaching, coaching, but they know

01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,400
the rules well to be able to bring it up for discussion.

01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:35,840
Yeah. Do you have much interaction with the athletes in terms of abuse?

01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:44,160
I think abuse is the hardest part. But I think we, again, again, again, again, I think it's

01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:53,920
always in school. So I think there have been miscommunications for sure. Right. So like,

01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,480
sometimes like you say something and then another person says something and you'd be like,

01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:04,320
what happened? Right. So, and then they started, you know, doing a tantrum and of course,

01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:09,120
I can be that asshole and give them a yellow card, but obviously I'm not going to do that.

01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:17,280
How does that ever happen? So far I have not given. So I've been told that I'm a bit soft

01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,920
on giving yellow cards. You can ask Tyler for that. So Tyler Maltin said that. So anyway,

01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:30,800
but I think my point is, if you can kind of mitigate it first, then let's do that.

01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:43,040
I believe in that prophecy. So I think a good example would be again Salt Lake City. A lot of

01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:49,360
things that happened in Salt Lake City. My first ever World Cup. Good experience for sure. So I

01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:55,200
think, so what happened was, it was during the speed event. So one of the Italian players. So it

01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:05,440
was the practice, well, so before qualifications right. So it's pretty standard that if you climb,

01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:11,520
once you fall, when I say fall, you're off the wall, your feet pass the ground, that's the end

01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:18,000
of your climb. For some strange reason, I don't know why, if any of the coaches are saying please

01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:23,680
tell them to only stop climbing okay. Because for some strange reason, a lot of people, before they

01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:30,240
think it's a practice, the moment they tap, they go up again. That's not allowed. And that's also

01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:34,240
one of the parts where I think the Spanish coach shouting at me, saying why are they calling me

01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,800
again? It's not the rules, they cannot be calling me again. And you get a lot of shit because of

01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:46,240
that. Of course to be fair, yeah, I couldn't wait in time, but of course after that, I went to the

01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:53,520
athlete and say you cannot do this, if you're a yellow belt because that's disobedience basically.

01:03:53,520 --> 01:04:04,480
But so that was it. So the context of BIT is about athletes climbing despite falling,

01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:09,200
not climbing again despite falling. So what happened to this Italian climber? So this

01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:16,640
Italian athlete was like, so he came, so after that, a group of people was telling,

01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:21,360
so after that incident happened basically, I told my officials, I said those at the cold zone,

01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:28,800
I told them okay, they cannot climb. I said after they finish the attempt, they cannot do a re-attempt,

01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:33,680
right, it's only one attempt basically. So next thing you know, this Italian dude came out and

01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:38,160
they climb and they came down and then he climbed again, then I was like what the hell is this guy

01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:44,720
doing? I literally told this guy not to climb. So and then I was like yo, I told you not to climb,

01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,840
why are you climbing again? Then he started, I said your guy told me he can't climb. Then I was like

01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:59,040
who? So I went back to the cold zone, so I was asking, did we tell them to climb again?

01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:06,880
Then he was like no, I told them they can't climb. Then, wait, wait, wait, then after that,

01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:11,680
it became like a three-way conversation. So I was talking to my cold zone IC and I was talking to

01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:16,960
this stallion dude, I was like you tell me who's the person who tell you you can't climb? Then he

01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:22,320
pointed to my cold zone and I was like did you tell him? So in it I was like, I'm like a, I don't

01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:27,200
know, a therapist between two fighting couples or whatever you want to call it, but and then he was

01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:34,800
like yeah, you told me I can climb. I said no, I told you can't climb. So it was an issue of

01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:45,840
pronunciation. So you know how you say C-A-N apostrophe T, that guy thought was can as in

01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:51,280
C-A-N. Then I was like you know what, so I told my cousin and she was like can we just say you

01:05:51,280 --> 01:06:00,000
can't climb? So and all that, yeah it's this kind of things, it's so trivial, it's funny,

01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:08,960
but then you know how that kind of snowballed something else. So it's just an initial

01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:17,360
articulation I guess. So yeah I think athletes wise and as large as possible I think as judges

01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:26,560
or officials and this, I think we are also trained to keep our distance from them. So that kind of

01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:32,400
explains why we don't as if the unknown best is going to get a lot of abuse from them. They kind

01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:38,160
of make like verbal tantrums like you can say why is that not the zone or why is it not the top. I

01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:44,400
think that's pretty normal, but then even in isolation that we keep our distance. We want

01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:49,040
to talk to them after the event, I think that's fine, but as much as possible we don't want to

01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:55,040
appear to the public, to coaches as though we give some kind of favoritism,

01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,680
because at the end of the day we have to be neutral, right? So we cannot, same reason why

01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:06,240
we cannot cheer when they talk, we have to keep our faces straight and blank as possible, so yeah.

01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:07,040
Yeah, is that hard?

01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:10,560
Oh yes, yeah. It's like, yeah.

01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:16,720
Yeah, I kind of forgot that there's like yellow cards because I guess I never

01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:24,800
see that happen. Is that just given out for like bad behavior or like unsportsmanlike

01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:32,320
stuff? I remember during the Olympics, there was like a shot of Luka Pudger like

01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:37,520
punching the wall. Is that like yellow card worthy?

01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:47,200
If you are showing unsportsmanlike behavior, that will constitute to a yellow card.

01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:58,880
The most basic of a yellow card infringement would be not obeying the instructions of

01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:10,000
the IMSC judge. Example, you have been called to get ready at the court zone. You are not there.

01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:17,200
The IMSC judge approaches you and tells you that you need to go to the court zone now

01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:26,000
because you have less than five minutes to get ready for the border. And if you are not moving,

01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:36,560
then that could give you enough reasons for the IMSC judge to issuance a yellow card.

01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:47,920
Then when she said it is really unsportsmanlike behavior, again, hitting the wall. To what

01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:53,840
extent are you hitting the wall? Are you just taking a step on the wall? Are you really kicking

01:08:53,840 --> 01:09:00,720
it so hard? Or are you kicking a chalk back to the audiences? I think that is something that

01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:08,400
probably you will be able to see in some photos or videos. So that is unsportsmanlike behavior.

01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:14,640
Again, the degree of the unsportsmanlike behavior, is it something that you look at it, it's like,

01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:20,400
okay, this is definitely unsportsmanlike behavior, you should not do that, or what. But there are

01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:26,720
times that because it shows the emotion. And again, that could be something that we could just

01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:34,400
control your emotions, for example. If we think that this is still something that's tolerable.

01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,200
Again, it is a fine line, I think we will still want to be always going out,

01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:47,360
showing Milo card to everyone, right? And the timing is really a display

01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:58,080
of emotions, whether it might not be, as long as it's within, as long as it is tolerable,

01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:05,360
it will probably be, yeah. The profanities is like the number one conflict, I said,

01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:10,480
over the phone, it's like on screen you can see it, it's like, you know, they will,

01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:14,880
but then you can teleport. Is that not allowed or? Yeah, definitely it's not allowed. So

01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:22,160
most of the time if I hear it, I was like, uh, language. Yeah, it's like, you understand,

01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,880
you want to empathize with them, but then you have to do their job. We have to do our job,

01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:32,640
and at the end of the day, again, you know, this kind of thing will take up, you know, the mics

01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:40,800
are all over. Oh, true, yeah. Yeah, so I think you'd be surprised, I think even coming out onto

01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:47,680
the wall without your BIP number also warrants you a yellow card. Right, yeah, okay, that makes

01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:57,760
sense, I guess. Yeah. The yellow card that I've given is due to, interestingly, different sets

01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:07,200
of uniforms being worn by athletes of the same country. So you probably have like three or four

01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:14,960
athletes, maybe they'd wear two different versions of the uniform. That's not allowed, but the other

01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:21,200
one, they're all wearing the same uniforms, but suddenly you see someone, one athlete has maybe

01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:28,240
another two logos plastered on the uniform. That's not allowed because the uniform is standardized.

01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:36,400
Well, that's not really something they can just like go and change really quick,

01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:48,400
can they? It is something that probably, as long as they can change it before the competition starts,

01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:56,400
as long as they are not out in the field of play in different uniforms, then that's fine.

01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:01,040
I can't imagine why they would wear the wrong uniform unless it was just like by accident and

01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:07,520
they didn't bring the right one. Some of them, what happened would be like,

01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:14,320
hey, maybe the federation has changed the uniform. So you've got two athletes, both of them for some

01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:22,160
logistical reason. One is not getting a new set of uniform and the other one has a new set of

01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:30,880
uniform. And some in the past, some athletes would be like, okay, take out additional logos that is

01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:40,560
sort of like their personal answers. So if we see it, sometimes during isolation,

01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:49,440
we would just ask like, this is not the uniform that you're wearing when you're going around the

01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:54,480
field to play, right? So just to gauge that. So X hasn't mind it. So someone said, oh no,

01:12:54,480 --> 01:13:01,920
this is a watch. I will change it. Yeah. If not, then it will be like, no, this is the only one I

01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:10,160
have to ask. Then you know that you are not allowed to, everybody in the team has to have

01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:15,200
the same uniform. Then we have to find a way, they have to find a way. It's like, okay, you have to

01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:24,320
find a way, right, to get that new uniform. Either the two of you rotate the uniform,

01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:30,400
or maybe the other person has a spare set, for example. So that the problem solving will be

01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:35,840
up to them. For us, it will be, okay, when you are at the field, we should be looking at everybody

01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:41,520
in a standardised uniform. If not, then we have to issue a yellow card. And then it goes into,

01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:46,560
if it's a different uniform, then we have to start to look into it, which one is the right one,

01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:52,960
which we actually have a file where federations will submit the uniform for us. So we have to,

01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:57,120
okay, this one is the right one. So it's not the, oh, I want a yellow card, the wrong athlete.

01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:06,880
Okay. Wow. Interesting. So, yeah, some of the crazy stories that you have during the time,

01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:14,080
I guess, either as judge or event delegate, either at the IFSC or locally,

01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:17,920
yeah, any crazy stories that either of you want to get into?

01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:28,480
Well, I'll say my craziest event would probably be the World Cup last year in Jakarta.

01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:36,640
Yeah. Really, for a few reasons, it was just a speed World Cup. We had to,

01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:46,160
we were really concerned with the event. We know about the weather forecast not being promising.

01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:53,280
And it's been just, yeah, so everybody was quite worried. So it's quite interesting because we

01:14:53,280 --> 01:15:00,960
talked to the organizers. We were like, hey, we need to really plan regarding the weather. The

01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:11,200
event is taking place in the evening. We need to have understanding for, yeah, what's the

01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:17,280
conditions in place. And we really like to check with the local meteorological station on the

01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:25,920
weather forecast. So they were like, no, we've got everything settled. And we're like, okay,

01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:39,360
so what's the plan? Oh, yeah, we've got the subject matter expert. He will be able to fix

01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:47,520
the weather. So we were like, okay. So we started to ask a bit more. In short, they've got somebody

01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:57,920
with traditional wisdom, which can control the weather. Then we were like, yeah, okay,

01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:07,760
thank you. But I think it's not possible for me to tell the coaches and the team managers that,

01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:13,840
oh, we've got somebody with traditional wisdom that can fix the weather. Or neither could I put

01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:24,400
this in the report if I have to cancel. So we were like, oh, it's not easy. They were confident.

01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:33,120
I get it. But again, I need some actual information for us to make contingency and stuff.

01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:43,760
So it took us really a very long while for us to really get some scientific reports.

01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:50,160
I have to talk about things that I said. It's traditional and scientific terms for us to make

01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:58,480
the decision. So we had the qualification, qualification ran semi-final. We were expecting

01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:10,880
to have rain. Interestingly, three hours before, it was a very big rain and suddenly it stopped,

01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:16,960
giving us enough time to do it. I think we rescheduled the competition probably an hour

01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:23,360
before it just stopped and we were able to actually clean up the field of play. It's time

01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:31,440
for the finals. Is it the weather report? Is it a traditional whistle? I don't know.

01:17:31,440 --> 01:17:40,800
And also, same event. That was the first time that it's quite usual that if the IFSC board

01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:46,960
members is not around, the event director would have to be involved in a few ceremonial rules

01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:53,360
that include being the presenter for the awarding ceremony and the opening ceremony.

01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:59,600
So, I had Xandru who was the sports operations manager from the IFSC office with me.

01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:08,960
So, that was the first day of competition. We were having some discussion and the organizer came.

01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:20,000
Hey, both of you are invited to the opening ceremony of the World Cup. Okay, sure. So,

01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:27,280
we went there. So, I thought that okay, probably go there just to sit and grace the event with

01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:33,840
performance. In Asia, we always have a performance. So, that was it. And it was later that I realized

01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:41,360
that we had to be part of the opening ceremony. So, in this opening ceremony, they have a skit

01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:54,800
where there's this skit about the competition taking place. And you have this bad character

01:18:55,920 --> 01:19:08,240
is going to disrupt the competition. And Alessandro and I have to get into a spa with

01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:17,280
the two henchmen. So, we have to rehearse it. And literally, I have to grab the knife of him

01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:27,120
and actually stab the henchman. So, it's like, oh, we're becoming a performer in the opening

01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:37,440
ceremony. So, yeah, I have the photo that I sent you. But unfortunately, it didn't kickstart any

01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:53,760
acting opportunities. So, I saw an opening ceremony in Kachau that was one of the World

01:19:53,760 --> 01:20:00,960
Cup side won two in person. Does that only happen in Asia? I didn't see any opening ceremonies

01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:13,200
anywhere else. Yeah. So far, for Asia, like Indonesia, China, the opening ceremony would

01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:24,240
usually comprise of one or two performance that is done by a local group just to showcase the

01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:30,640
culture. Yeah. So, I'll give that a bit more comment than what we had. So, in Europe,

01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:35,840
probably we have an opening ceremony just for the flag ceremony. There are probably

01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:44,000
some speeches to kickstart. Yeah. But over here, there's tends to be a bit more elaborate,

01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:49,360
I think, performance. I think the speech by the dignitaries as well.

01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:58,000
Makes sense. And yeah. So, going back to the rain issue, that kind of happens a lot,

01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:06,480
like almost all the time. There's always a rain concern. How is this not fixed at all?

01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:14,080
I mean, because like, yeah, you had to cancel an entire round in Kachau. That makes it pretty

01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,040
difficult. I think even recently, like in Innsbruck, there was a big delay.

01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:26,400
Yeah. So, first of all, to fix, to really fix this problem for,

01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:35,360
yeah, to fix this problem, I think we need to have all IPv6 events being organized indoors.

01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:45,600
Indoor stadium or something, and it's not going to be cheap to have IPv6 events in indoor stadium.

01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:57,360
It's going to cost a lot for the organizers. Probably, there are gyms that are spectacular.

01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:06,720
That's good. But if you're organizing in gyms, it costs 3D to not allow so many spectators.

01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:13,760
Could be maybe $300, $400, and that's the max. So that's where I see that

01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:24,480
having competitions outdoors is still considered a viable option because you can find a big space,

01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:33,680
you set up the wall, you prepare for 5,000 people, and because this is an open space like

01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:45,040
the last two competitions in Jakarta, the cost to rent space would be minimal.

01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:52,320
You pay some miscellaneous charge for the cleaning services, but if you want to book

01:22:52,320 --> 01:23:01,360
an indoor stadium like PPC Arena in France, this could be quite a lot. And if you think about it,

01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:11,920
three days of competition, five days of resetting, plus another three days of construction, that's

01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:21,840
two a week. Yeah, so that is the challenges. That's why competitions are still being

01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:31,840
organized outdoors. If it's outdoor, having a rain, I think that is definitely a drawback,

01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:39,440
which again, because we are using a temporary venue, we can't have a booth that's as big as

01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:49,920
possible. Kachiao, unfortunately I would say that it's really a bit unfortunate because you've been

01:23:49,920 --> 01:24:01,840
there, you've known that it is considered an indoor facility, but if listeners can check the

01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:10,160
wet check, some of the waters of the venue is that you have a big hole in the center.

01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:19,040
In short, this hole, if it rains, everybody gets wet. The spectators that are sitting

01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:26,960
at the terraces, spectators that are standing just right in front of the field of play,

01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:37,760
and also the field play as well. You probably also see that when it rains, water rather than a

01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:50,240
funnel to drain upwards, it's draining inwards as well. So I'll say that, yeah,

01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:57,680
that is really unfortunate. You have a nice place, but due to the engineering or design,

01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:08,720
the place couldn't be dry enough to give the athletes the perfect competition that they

01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:17,120
deserve. So I'll say that it's a pity. And I really hope that we have the same.

01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:24,080
This venue was built for the Asian Games last year. We had to unfortunately cancel

01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:32,800
the final rounds for the women's gold athlete. So the medals were awarded based on the semi-final

01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:46,960
results. But stage, I would say a cover was built for, we have this cover to block the rain in the

01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:57,440
Coachella World Cup, but it's not enough because the floor gets wet. So it's coming out for

01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:08,880
causal, quite a challenge for them to get to the field of play without the shoes being wet.

01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:19,280
Even with that big shelter, half of the dead would still be subjected to rain.

01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:25,920
So I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping that that could be resolved

01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:35,760
for future events. Why don't you guys just hire the person who knows how to make the rain go away?

01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:40,640
Yes, maybe that is a bigger way. I think you should reach out to him again.

01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:48,080
I think they should share a bit of resources here where we get the traditional, the wise men to go

01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,560
over to Coachella and try it out. Yeah, exactly.

01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:58,160
Yeah, I mean, it worked the first time, so maybe there is something to it.

01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:03,200
Okay, Zul, any examples from you in mind?

01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:15,360
Among ourselves, the local judges, we have this funny joke about how in order for you to pass

01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:22,080
what the judges cost, you need to do this one particular event that all of us did,

01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:29,280
which was one of these, it wasn't an IBCC Con, but it was a continental event, but

01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:40,640
it was super bad, in that sense where, so in a nutshell, the shittiest thing that happened was,

01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:46,880
so it was a mixture of boulder, lead and spit, right, but during the lead event,

01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:55,760
the belayers literally walked out of the event, and they did not want, they kind of went to a test.

01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:01,840
Well, yeah, so I think it was some politics thing, so they'd be like, you know,

01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:08,800
FCU, we're not going to belay, and then we were like, huh, how did you even go to the event,

01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:15,440
and then the JP, the TD at that point of time had to tell the coaches that, you know what,

01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:22,880
this is what happened, I don't know, so and then it ended up with the coaches themselves

01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:32,720
belaying the athletes. Yeah, and now that's okay, I say sure, it's like, yeah, it was,

01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,520
it was, I don't know, maybe it was a money issue, where, I don't know, it could be a lot of things,

01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:43,760
so, but definitely not within our circle as technical officials, for sure. In fact,

01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:50,640
I was not even a full-fledged judge at that point of time, I was there to take a course, which I

01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:59,920
failed the first time. Yeah, so, yeah, that con was quite iconic because it's like, I went overseas

01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:06,960
and then I was working with another senior judge, one of our mentors, and then this random dude was

01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:13,120
like asking us on, during dinner, he was like, so which is the worst con in your guide? With the

01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:17,760
boomerang I threw at him, I was like, you know what I was going to say, and he was like, I know what

01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:25,200
you're going to say, you know, it's to that level, right? So it was crazy, like, you know, I think the

01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:31,920
one underlying thing that a lot of people don't realize that competitions, in general, is the

01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:37,760
amount of politics involved. So, yeah, going into this also deals, you have to kind of deal with

01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:43,840
that, and I think that's where you kind of put it very nicely, you have to play your cards well,

01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:51,440
right? You need to know who you should appease, you should know who not to, I guess,

01:29:51,440 --> 01:29:59,920
in the right books, I guess, but that's not to say you should be pushed over just to every single

01:29:59,920 --> 01:30:06,560
thing somebody asks you to do, right? But anyway, before I do this, so that same competition,

01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:17,760
because, okay, so that competition was impractical for our course. So, continental judges, in case

01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:24,160
we didn't cover early on, so basically, let's say if you're already a full-fledged national judge,

01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:29,680
let's say you're ready to go to the next level at the discretion of your national

01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:36,480
federation, they can probably offer you or recommend you to go to the continental course.

01:30:36,480 --> 01:30:41,280
So, right now, it's a bit iffy because I don't know what ISAP-IFSC is doing, they might have

01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:47,280
their own upgrade to begin with, but back then, during my time at least, we had this continental

01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:53,760
judges course, so it's just one tier above, right? So, if you pass that course, you essentially become

01:30:53,760 --> 01:31:00,080
what you are now, your IFSC level one judge. So, as mentioned earlier on, you're only doing

01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:06,640
continental events at that level, right? So, that course, you take the theory bus, so there's an

01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:10,960
exam and all that, and then you have to do a practical. The practical is actually running the

01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:17,360
whole event of the competition. So, interestingly enough, that was where we had, as I mentioned,

01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:24,400
we didn't have control as to how billionaires can walk out of the event, but for me, I was also

01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:32,240
being a cellist, right? So, the funny thing was we knew that we were going to fail,

01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:38,480
so I said I already failed, and then we were still told to run the event. So, what was funny was that

01:31:38,480 --> 01:31:45,200
I had my counterpart, my friend, also from Singapore, who went to take the course. So,

01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:51,920
basically, he passed, I failed. So, I mean, there's a cohort basically, so I think a good 10 of us,

01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:56,960
so out of those 10, I think probably only 4 of them passed, so he was one of them. So,

01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:01,920
the funny thing was we basically look kind of similar, both full-grown guys,

01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:10,320
and then what was funny was, so the assessor was telling me, I said, okay, you do lead event,

01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:14,960
you run the whole show. I'm like, what are you asking me to do? I'm like, oh, okay, fine,

01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:22,160
but I've done it anyway, so I did it anyway, and long story short, I did it well enough to

01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:26,320
be considered as a pass, but that pass wasn't for me, but was for my friend.

01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:31,280
And then I was like, after the event, I was like, what do you ask me to do it? He said,

01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:39,360
I saved the course. I said, wait, you're not this guy? I'm like, yeah, I'm not this guy,

01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:49,040
so I made my friend pass. So there were minor minor stuff like how when I was judging,

01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:56,160
I was the boulder judge, and then a Thai female climber was sitting in line. It was a rotation

01:32:56,160 --> 01:33:05,760
format, right? And she had an asthma attack. Then I was like, are you okay? And then I'm like,

01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:10,320
how do I react? Of course, it was my first time, right? I was like, should I take care of this?

01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:17,760
But then I need to judge, so do I? It was a bit chaotic at times. Thankfully, the coach was right

01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:31,040
behind me. I was like, yeah, I'll handle this. And then I think there was not a crazy story,

01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:37,280
but kind of funny. Same thing, Solid City. So what happened was during one, I can't recall

01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:43,600
whether it was, it was a speed event. I'm not sure which round. I will send you timestamp.

01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:52,720
There was a bee. A bee was flying and going into the peanut hole. And all that was caught on screen.

01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:58,480
The camera guy was zooming in into the bee and I was like, okay. And the funny thing,

01:33:58,480 --> 01:34:04,720
I was on the ground and I was like, why? So it was, I think, Giulia Rendi from Italy. She was

01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:12,160
going to compete with the female Chinese climber in this one. So it was before the round. And then

01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:19,760
I was like, why does Giulia look so uneasy? You know, she felt as though there was something and

01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:24,560
I was like, oh, there's a bee. At the top of my mind, I was like, please, please, please do not

01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:30,800
sting anyone, because I don't want to handle it. You know, it's like, oh, I got stung by a bee,

01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:39,600
and now I have to do a whole new rerun or whatsoever. So it was super funny. And everything

01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:46,560
was caught on live stream. It's like immortalized on the live stream. Of course, it was nice to have

01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:54,160
the USAC guys, you know, Black Tie Hathaway, was doing your world billiard thing. His crew was

01:34:54,160 --> 01:35:02,800
like trying to show what such a way that bee, and he did it once, and then it came back. At the end

01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:07,920
of the day, I was like, I think Steve, Steve, yeah, Steve went in and was like, for some reason,

01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:15,520
took like three guys to like remove the bee, you know. And then there was one time where everyone

01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:21,920
started laughing. Trevor was one of it, and I think Premier ZZ was like, kind of saved the day.

01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:26,960
I was like, what the hell, you know, it's all because of bees. Yeah, and I think to be fair,

01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:33,280
I was also told, you can't, because in US, we have like state laws and all that stuff, like,

01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:40,000
this could be, I also learned that you can't just kill it because they could be protected species

01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:44,160
and all that, so you can't get fined, and I'm like, I'm not gonna get that, I will see if it's

01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:47,680
fine for killing a bee. Oh, I didn't know about that. Right, so, you know, that sort of thing,

01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:55,440
so yeah, it's a lot of funny things that happened, so, but the bee layers working out will still

01:35:55,440 --> 01:36:03,120
be the top of my list. All right, well, thank you for the stories. So yeah, now moving forward,

01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:10,960
looking ahead into the future of IFSC and judging anything that you would like to see changed

01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:19,280
to make either your lives easier or any ideas you have to improve it. I think the main bulk of our

01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:25,760
work is still, you know, as mentioned, to deal with appeals and all that, so I think if there's

01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:35,280
a way to kind of mitigate or reduce the effort needed for that, I think that would help tremendously

01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:41,920
because I think just to share a bit on what's the current process, we still have video gamers to

01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:50,240
record each of the athletes' climbs, but what we have to do now is we always have to, okay, let's say

01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:56,080
they are done or in some cases you have to wait until the lane is clear before we can review the video.

01:36:56,080 --> 01:37:03,360
That whole process itself is already very time-consuming, that's one, but the actual problem

01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:11,760
relies on the viewing of the athlete's video. So you have to look into it, you have to find it,

01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:18,800
find which, for boulder, it could be which attempt, for lead, it could be at which particular point,

01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:24,240
of course, yeah, if you know the person got somewhere on the head wall, then obviously you

01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:29,680
kind of fast forward to that part, but I think all that stuff, how do we then make it easier,

01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:37,360
faster and more efficient, because right now it feels a lot more manual in that sense.

01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:44,800
I guess it kind of comes to the spot, but if, let's say, for example, we were talking about it

01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:51,600
previously, like what if we had something like what FIFA has, you know, the VAR system, you know,

01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:58,160
it's maybe something that you can tie in with AI, let's say you need a particular data set of

01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:06,640
all the different types of appeal and what is the result, can that camera system register and then

01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:14,880
recommend a result or a score, for example. So then, obviously, you still need that human

01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:20,960
to go and verify, okay, so this is correct, for example. So of course, this is maybe a proprietary

01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:30,720
idea. Whoever decided to make this 10% finder fee for us, okay. Anyway, yeah, it could be that,

01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:35,680
it could be that. So it's just making things a lot more efficient, at least on my end,

01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,960
yeah, because we're always constantly running and all that. So I don't know about you, Stanley?

01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:48,160
Well, we talk about distribution of information, that's very important, I think. You spoke to Matt,

01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:54,480
Matt, let me tell you about incidents like something that's happening on the field of play,

01:38:54,480 --> 01:39:02,160
it's not in plan. Usually I'll write pieces of paper, drop over there because being a delegate,

01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:07,840
I will probably be the one that's the boat between the field of play and where he is.

01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:13,920
There needs to be probably, I'll say, a more centralized distribution of information.

01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:21,760
If you see what Formula One is doing, when there's a potential incident that they need to

01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:28,800
investigate, start to have problems that's coming up to say, okay, so then this driver is being

01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:36,000
investigated for potential violation, I think that would be something that would be interesting,

01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:45,200
having a big set to act in this case, having this on screen. Why expect data now? Because again,

01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:49,120
when we're talking about sports, it's not just the action, but it's the information as well.

01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:56,240
So when you're watching something happens, it should be coming out wide. Likewise, the

01:39:56,240 --> 01:40:03,840
previous system, probably we're still doing a bit more manual. So if everything can be a bit more

01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:14,320
streamlined, integrated, where the coaches could put in the appeal, probably send it via an app to

01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:21,040
the jury president, maybe give him an electronic shock or something, so that he knows, oh, I'm

01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:28,320
receiving an appeal. Then, okay, if it's accepted, zap back at him. If it's rejected, zap the coaches

01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:34,880
twice. Something like this. So at least have something that is a bit more streamlined and

01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:43,040
all this could be in a centralized formation. We've been in our second Olympics. We are going to

01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:59,760
LA. I really hope that we could get three medals so that the gold at speed can be independently

01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:12,880
presented. I think that the athletes have been working very hard for the last six, eight years.

01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:22,240
When we had Tokyo, they had to adapt by incorporating speed into their training.

01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:33,280
And for speed athletes, having to attempt to do that as well. Here in Paris, we have a standalone

01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:42,320
for speed, but they still caught S1. I think they should be given the opportunity to compete

01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:49,200
in a straight discipline separately. That's something that's my wish. The other thing

01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:56,720
that I really hope is that again, with us being more popular now, I hope that we

01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:10,640
this is a good time to actually prioritize the athletes' prize money for the future events.

01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:19,360
I think this should be given a lot more. Maybe we couldn't, we can't prioritize it in the last

01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:24,080
four to six years because there are more urgent things that we need to do. But now we have got

01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:28,720
more eyeballs. People are talking about sports like me. This is a good time for that.

01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:38,480
All right, cool. Those are all the questions I had. A couple quick Discord questions that

01:42:38,480 --> 01:42:44,720
we can go through. So the first one, how different are World Cups depending on who's

01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:50,400
organizing them? And what are your most chaotic experiences with event organizers?

01:42:51,360 --> 01:42:56,800
If the World Cup is organized, if it's European, I haven't been, interestingly,

01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:01,120
I haven't been to the American World Cups. I've been to a couple of European World Cups.

01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:08,080
If you're going to the European World Cups, it's like we've planned everything. Our trip

01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:18,560
literally is from the airport all the way to the venue. The official hotel in Asia,

01:43:19,440 --> 01:43:26,240
depending. In Japan, I've been to Japan. That's where I've made my way all the way to Hachioji

01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:34,000
last year. Jakarta, you probably have somebody. So there will be some organizers who will be

01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:37,920
offering pick-up service. So there are somebody to pick you up.

01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:46,240
Yeah. So that actually saves you that planning and coordinating. So like in China, there's always

01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:54,080
somebody who will pick you up from the airport. Yeah. And the dynamics of each organization,

01:43:54,080 --> 01:44:00,080
it is actually very, very different. You have the national federations.

01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:09,680
We are always the organizing of the competition, but they'll probably be working with

01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:17,280
the local sub, like Germany, for example. You have FFME that is

01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:26,800
forming a competition committee. But then in the actual execution, you will be working with them,

01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:36,160
will be actually working with the strong team to co-run the event. So this is where it's

01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:43,360
interesting because I'll say that in Europe, everything will be more systematic.

01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:51,600
You would need a lot of autonomy and initiative to probably find your way in the planning process,

01:44:51,600 --> 01:44:57,280
but working with everyone, it seems like they know what to do. And I'll say, across Europe,

01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:02,720
it's quite uniform in how you do things and you work collaboratively with various stakeholders.

01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:13,840
In Asia, it could be quite different. Sometimes it's only one, two or three key person that has

01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:19,120
all the information and you need to go to that to actually solve those problems.

01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:27,200
So again, we have quite a lot of events in China. So one of the challenges would be,

01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:33,680
if you're going to different places in China, it does work a bit differently.

01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:38,400
So for me, my advantage is because I speak Chinese, which is their native language,

01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:43,840
so I will still be able to communicate to the people on the ground.

01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:50,400
Yeah, so I'll say that dynamics is probably quite different depending on which country.

01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:58,960
And also with this, that also means that we have to always remain very adaptable and also be

01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:06,240
a bit, you don't have that awareness or that culture, WK culture as well.

01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:11,120
And then most chaotic experiences with event organizers?

01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:14,800
I felt that again, going back to Keqiao,

01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:24,960
because I've got two chaotic experiences in Keqiao that resulted in me having to cancel

01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:34,080
at least one round of competition. So Keqiao playing for the Asian Games, it was so chaotic

01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:40,480
that it rained so much that the reason we have to cancel the competition was literally,

01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:48,080
if you look at the boulder wall, the water is seeping out from the front of the wall.

01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:52,880
Because when we announced that to the coaches that we have to cancel it,

01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:57,840
the coaches requested to be brought out to take a look at the wall because they need to prepare

01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:02,560
for the season. And you can see that it's literally like the boulder wall is crying

01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:10,480
through the boardwalks. So I will say that it's always chaotic because if you look at the

01:47:10,480 --> 01:47:17,120
facility, you look at the event, to you it's like, hey, this is a stadium that is built just for

01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:26,800
climbing. You sort of have that full confidence that this is how future sports climbing events

01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:38,000
should be in such a venue. But yet, the architecture didn't do the venue and the

01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:44,400
sports enough justice. And of course, when it rains, first of all, you have to keep everything

01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:53,760
as dry as possible. You need to keep everybody in, you need to start to sit down and make decisions

01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:58,320
really fast. And everybody's like, oh, what's happening? Yeah, so that is always the most

01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:08,240
chaotic for me. Yeah, so I think, well, I'm still being followed up, so I can't say for certain,

01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:17,200
but I think largely, I think it depends on the event organizer, whether they're experienced or

01:48:17,200 --> 01:48:26,480
not. Because ironically, one of the cons, I think that same year that a particular country

01:48:26,480 --> 01:48:34,480
shut or woke up, and that same year, later part of the year, they had a continental event,

01:48:34,480 --> 01:48:42,800
but it was such a distinct difference. We don't know what happened in terms of whether because

01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:51,360
there are different camps in the whole organization or different teams, so sometimes you may get

01:48:51,360 --> 01:49:00,000
different kind of experiences in that sense, but I think that kind of translates into what you need

01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:05,840
to do also because, regardless of whether it's an international event or whether it's a local event,

01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:13,120
the organizer's experience will determine how much workload you need to do, because if it's

01:49:13,120 --> 01:49:17,360
my first time, let's say I'm an organizer, it's my first time organizing from this year,

01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:22,720
I wouldn't know nuts about how to run an event, so there's a lot more hand-holding,

01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:28,880
there's a lot more going back and forth trying to tell them, okay, why you should be doing this,

01:49:28,880 --> 01:49:34,800
why should you not be doing this, so we're always going into that lens from an events management

01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:42,080
view, and I think a lot of people don't realize this or don't know this, but for us as judges

01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:50,000
especially, even at my level, a good 70% of it, it's events management, the judging is only 30%,

01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:56,880
so it's really looking at it from a flow perspective, you know, what if it rains,

01:49:56,880 --> 01:50:02,320
can the athlete walk here, can they see the wall, you know, all that stuff has to be taken into

01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:08,080
account, but yeah, so I think it differs from organizers to organizers for sure.

01:50:08,080 --> 01:50:16,400
In the Olympic event, I can't say, but then I think Asian Games last year was,

01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:21,920
yeah, I think kind of piggybacking on his experience as well, it was sad because

01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:30,400
when Stanley came in to tell the coaches, you know, they say, guys, we need to cancel the event,

01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:42,320
the athletes visibly looked upset obviously, right, but they were so looking forward to climb

01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:49,040
to the extent they came to us, can we still climb now in the rain, and of course we're gonna say no

01:50:49,040 --> 01:50:54,800
because the liability, safety issue, right, so you know, it's this kind of things that you,

01:50:54,800 --> 01:51:00,000
I wouldn't want to be in that position as well, they flew all the way in, they fly in,

01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:04,720
do one round of qualifications and finals and then suddenly,

01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:15,120
and there was also the same event that because of the rain, I had to judge in the raincoat,

01:51:16,320 --> 01:51:20,480
never have I judged in a raincoat before, so it's like, it was raining,

01:51:20,480 --> 01:51:26,320
everything was dripping wet, and then you get a tablet, and then you have like, I have to,

01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:33,120
my judge still had to key in, scoring, right, and I'm like that, she better not get water inside,

01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:37,920
you know, it's like, if not, it's gonna scoop up everything. Yeah, lucky the water didn't

01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:44,640
fill up the trench. Yeah. You see the trench? So yeah, it's kinda shallow, so the judges are

01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:52,720
sitting, it's like a long-ass bathtub, it depends on how you look at it, so we were in there,

01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:57,200
right, so and yeah, we couldn't move, as then, yeah, we had to wear a raincoat,

01:51:57,200 --> 01:52:05,200
I was like wiping stuff for my judge to, you know, yeah, it was all over the place, yeah.

01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:11,680
We made it, but. Yeah, no, it's really uncomfortable. I remember even just like watching,

01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:18,000
it was, it was really uncomfortable, I kind of was kind of miserable. It was, yeah. Yeah,

01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:24,800
there was one about if national federations should be the ones organizing World Cups or

01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:35,920
if other, I guess, maybe like corporations are viable. Okay, yeah, so I know that previously

01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:43,600
for all the World Cups application, it needs to be submitted by the National Federation.

01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:52,960
So that means that with that process, that means that if there is a commercial

01:52:52,960 --> 01:53:01,200
organization that wishes to organize it, probably they'll need to work with the National Federation,

01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:10,960
right, then to make an application. I've seen last year's application form

01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:20,560
that's available on iFNC. It states that the application seems to be now probably

01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:26,720
a product to not just the Federation, but probably the city councils as well.

01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:35,520
So that could be like, for example, the city of Madrid wants to apply for

01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:44,960
iFNC World Cup instead of the French Federation. I think that probably is a possibility, right?

01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:52,480
Yeah. So, yeah, so it seems like, you know, there's probably iFNC is actually looking at

01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:59,200
having different stakeholders to organize more events in this case.

01:53:59,200 --> 01:54:01,120
You see NEOM could see that.

01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:03,440
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that an example of it?

01:54:03,440 --> 01:54:04,960
Right? Kind of, right?

01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:12,080
Yeah. NEOM could be interested to know that NEOM is in the iFNC, so that would probably be the

01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:17,680
case because if you look at the infrastructure from NEOM, there was a lot of mention regarding

01:54:19,440 --> 01:54:23,840
the National Federation of Digital Society, Climate Federation.

01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:27,120
Okay. Cool. Yeah. Any other final thoughts?

01:54:27,120 --> 01:54:34,080
Yeah. People has always been asking. Well, I always have friends who's coming in. Hey,

01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:43,680
why are you here in Singapore? You're not a Slovenia? Are you not a Copa or whatever? Yeah.

01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:50,720
So, actually, I don't go to everywhere. I think there are five event delegates. So,

01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:58,240
I think we rotate the events. A lot of people's been, sometimes people's been asking me, oh,

01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:07,280
what do I do? How do I get to become RIPC judge? So, like I said, I shared at the beginning that

01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:13,520
actually becoming an RIPC judge is only a start of the journey. Being an RIPC judge on paper,

01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:18,640
doesn't mean that you get nominated immediately. So, it took me really a few years

01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:28,000
to get my first nomination. A few years to get my second nomination before I was,

01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:35,200
yeah, I was engaged more regularly. So, it's really a lot of patience and also at the same

01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:42,880
time, a lot of self-development. You need to be constantly engaged, engaging yourself,

01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:50,400
competitions. Nowadays, you have much better resources because you have YouTube.

01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:58,320
If it's not Joe Block, at least in Asia, you have to be able to access RIPC brands on YouTube.

01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:09,040
So, that gives you a very good resources to looking at the rounds and comparing the results

01:56:09,040 --> 01:56:17,840
based on one judgment. And it's also important that to most to say, if you aspire to be RFS

01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:25,120
judge, it's not just judging, but you need to have an overview of the entire competition process.

01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:31,600
So, literally it means from the point that the athletes check it into the warming up isolation

01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:38,160
until the end. So, you need to know everything. Yeah. So, with that process,

01:56:38,160 --> 01:56:46,080
understanding that process would help you to have a clear idea of how you conceptualize certain

01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:52,000
things that helps you with your decision making process. And of course, a big part is the problem

01:56:52,000 --> 01:57:00,960
solving. So, I think it's really important to constantly update yourself, be in the know of

01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:09,040
what's happening. So, I think that even on my end, I can personally say that because I need to be

01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:19,760
aware. Because it's like you don't want to end up being passive. So, as I mentioned earlier on,

01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:28,160
you're doing a button facing role, right? So, you want to be a bit more active in that sense. So,

01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:38,880
I personally watch the YouTube live streams. To be fair, my commitments might be slightly different.

01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:47,840
I can wake up at 2am in Singapore just to watch Solarize. But that's because I choose to do it,

01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:51,200
right? Of course, no one's stopping you to watch the replays, but at that time,

01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:58,480
you didn't know the results. So, spoiler! Okay, anyway. But I think, words of wisdom, I would say

01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:08,480
I personally can attest to this because I started from the bottom, right? So, I was a national judge,

01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:15,440
still a national judge. I went to Continental and then through recommendations and all that,

01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:20,880
I was shortlisted to get into Punggol Chef, right? So, in all that years,

01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:31,520
I think a lot of times, I kept that mindset of take what you can. So, it came to a point where

01:58:31,520 --> 01:58:39,920
if they appoint you, just take it because to me, that's like if you play games, that's

01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:45,200
basically gaining XP, getting experience, right? No matter where you go, you're going to gain

01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:50,800
experience and every competition is going to be different for sure and patience is definitely

01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:56,960
one of it because you don't become an IFFC judge, you don't be a judge for that matter overnight,

01:58:56,960 --> 01:59:02,640
right? So, you need to have patience, patience not only in terms of the process but with people

01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:11,520
who probably look down on you because of your age. I've had judges who blatantly ignore me

01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:19,200
and show me away because they thought I was some stranger on the ground only to find out later on

01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:24,400
where they had problems they came to me. Then they realized like, oh okay, so you're the IFFC

01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:29,280
guys. I was like, oh wow, now they recognize me. So, you know, that sort of solves. For me,

01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:36,640
yeah, I'm 33 this year so I'm considered one of the younger judges. Typically, judges in the

01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:48,160
body area, they tend to be slightly older than I am. So I think don't, I guess, as much as age

01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:55,120
is a number, it is also a number, right? It can be an issue where people be like, oh, can you

01:59:55,120 --> 02:00:01,600
really believe this guy? But I think that's where you have to prove yourself. If you can make it,

02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:08,240
you can make it. If you cannot, it means you cannot. So yeah, so patience, dedication,

02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:15,520
relentlessness, I guess. You have to be, got to be hungry for it. So if you're not, yeah.

02:00:15,520 --> 02:00:20,240
Yeah, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work for not much recognition.

02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:21,200
It's sacrifice.

02:00:21,200 --> 02:00:26,000
Yeah, well, I think that is everything I had then. That's all the questions I had. Thanks

02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:31,600
for joining me. Do you want to let people know where they can find you?

02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:38,960
Yeah, I think I'm okay. We posted on Instagram. So yeah, I post nonsense once in a while. So

02:00:38,960 --> 02:00:42,800
yeah, but yeah, then put that link.

02:00:42,800 --> 02:00:48,320
Yeah, you can just put the link. If they need to approach me, if they need to get the National

02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:52,320
Federation to reach out to me or anything, yeah, I'm happy. So if you have questions,

02:00:52,320 --> 02:00:58,960
yeah, feel free to write to me. I'll be happy to reply. Although, yeah, my Instagram account,

02:00:58,960 --> 02:01:04,080
I don't really actually put a lot of photos, but I'm still responsive to messages.

02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:06,720
I will link those below in case people have questions.

02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:10,080
Okay, thank you. Amazing to talk to you guys.

02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:13,600
All right. Thank you so much, Jenny. Okay. Thank you, Jenny.

02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:17,760
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to

02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:22,640
like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big climber.

02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:27,200
If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars,

02:01:27,200 --> 02:01:30,080
and you can continue the discussion on the free

02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:42,880
competition climbing discord linked in the description. Thanks again for listening.