BONUS: Andy McVittie - Youth Climbing PT

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There are changes that go on within high -level

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elite youth climbers within their hands that

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would appear to suggest very early osteoarthritic

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changes. Quite a lot of people who've injured

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themselves and then not been able to go to comps,

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and it hasn't happened in a comp, it's happened

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outdoor climbing. One of the things that really

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helps prevent injury is variety. Welcome to another

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episode of the That's Not Real Climbing Podcast.

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I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce

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my guest for today, Andy McVittie. Andy is a climbing

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PT and this is his second time on the podcast.

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This time he's here with new research to talk

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about why youth climbers are maybe overdoing

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it with the climbing training, what early arthritis

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looks like, and the surprising dangers of outdoor

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climbing when it comes to competition climbers.

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I hope you enjoy this episode with Andy. Please

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pardon this brief intermission, but I'm excited

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for helping to sponsor the podcast. Now back

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to the show. I guess, how's your trip been going?

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It sounded a little bit insane last week. Yeah,

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there was some excitement at the start, but yeah,

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it's been okay. The weather here, certainly in

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Europe as a whole, it's been really unstable

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and unpredictable this winter. And so it's been

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a pretty wet trip, but it's the kind of, it's

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on a coastal region, Costa Blanca in Spain. So

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it's that kind of where if it's bad here, then

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maybe, you know, you drive an hour and a half

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or go inland and it might be better. Or if it's

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raining inland, then it'd be okay on the coast,

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that type of thing. So we've maybe not got our

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first choice of crag every day, but we've got

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out. Is it just a climbing trip or you're like

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doing other stuff too? No, just climbing. That's

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all we ever do. Although I have, on this trip

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as well, I've just turned 50. Oh, nice. Happy

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birthday, I guess. Thank you. Yeah, it was a

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few days ago. But my partner's got, we're going

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to take a short break to Naples in Italy, which

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is like the home of pizza, which is my other

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passion outside of climbing. And that will be

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the first non -climbing. okay well glad to hear

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that that all worked out okay and that you're

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you're all good on your trip did you did you

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watch like pcl or anything like that i did watch

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pcl yeah yeah how'd you like it super interesting

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wasn't it we we were like both really grateful

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we're on our trip you know sat there glass of

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wine watching it uh interested to sort of see

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what it was going to be like and that kind of

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thing and and obviously like super super exciting

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in the the men's final wasn't it i i think as

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a as a thing to watch and how they did sort of

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like the you know the camera work and camera

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angles which wasn't always perfect but neither

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is it even in soccer or you know big sports they

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sometimes get things wrong don't they they've

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got to learn and i kept thinking back to the

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the episode that you did where you were talking

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about you know what why did the ifsc or will

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climbing sometimes get these things not quite

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right and why aren't they showing that camera

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angle and what was that caption wrong with that

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kind of thing so i thought so much of the production

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was was fantastic um yeah i think it needs some

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tweaks doesn't it because somebody said to me

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a day or two after that you know if if max hadn't

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pulled off what he did which was you know absolutely

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amazing and a fantastic way to end it it was

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kind of perfect wasn't it but it would have come

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down to who's the quickest to get to hold two

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which might not have been quite as satisfying,

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really. But just exciting, different, isn't it?

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Cool that people are trying these things. And

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I think it's really got something. And I think

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it will develop. And they've said that themselves,

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haven't they? You know, the certain things that

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they want to work on. I think it would be cool.

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Okay. So for those who don't know you, what's

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your background? And how did you get into climbing

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and physical therapy? Okay. Yeah. So, yes, I

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am a full -time. uh climbing physical therapist

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um everybody always thinks that means i then

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just just do fingers and hands or maybe even

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elbows and and shoulders but most climbers or

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a lot of climbers are outdoors kind of people

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they'll run bike hike kayak you know all that

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kind of thing so yeah we do everything or i do

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everything really um i've been a climber now

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for 32 years i think it's a little bit now um

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so that's always been sort of a present throughout

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my adult life um been a coach for sort of like

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17 years i think now and as a physiotherapist

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who climbs you always get people you know can

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you look at this could you can you look at it

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um and so i started one evening a week in a local

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climbing gym um and it just grew over the last

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few years and very soon i had to make a decision

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you know do i go yeah by myself and just work

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for myself and do it full time and yeah i've

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done and you've worked a lot i guess um with

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youth climbers as well yeah you know youth side

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of things has always been kind of a passion of

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mine i've been making some small noises for a

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while saying sort of here in the uk we need to

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get some guidelines in place and bring people

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together and decide what's what and um yeah it's

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it's difficult to get people to focus on that

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to be honest um oh no no no none of this is is

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as a negative you know people are we're still

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developing and improving the say the structure

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of of things in general it's coming it's just

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i want it now you know obviously um yeah so i'm

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going to start some research myself well i have

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just started this year looking at youth comp

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climbers in the uk because what we have so far

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looking at how much are they doing yeah each

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week how many times are they climbing how long

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are those sessions how many injuries are they

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getting how intense are those sessions is it

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all bouldering do they get variety we don't know

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we have one study from canada from a good few

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years ago that surveyed 150, 152, I think it

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was, youth climbers, and one from America a couple

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of years ago where they looked at, I think it

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was 57 or 52. So, so far, out of all the youth

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who are climbing, comp climbers, you know, in

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squats and that type of thing, we've surveyed

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round about 200 of them to see what they're doing.

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And that's not a lot. Yeah, I was going to say,

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it's not a lot. I feel like there are a lot more

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out there. Yeah, and the Canadian research was

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a good few years ago now. Climbing's changed,

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just as we were talking about the PCL. That type

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of thing, climbing is changing every year. Well,

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we'll definitely focus a bit more on youth then.

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Yeah, it's true that maybe now is kind of like

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the first time where there are maybe more youth

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climbers who are... like solely focusing on maybe

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getting into competitions or maybe they were

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inspired from seeing competitions and that's

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kind of actually all they want to do do you feel

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like you see a little bit more of that yeah yeah

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and i don't as a as a climber who's started outdoors

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and and you know and came indoors and i i love

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it i think it's brilliant um there's such a aspect

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with with all sports um such a community that

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they can get involved with you know it it's it's

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a really special thing if it's done well um and

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you know it's a healthy activity in general builds

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confidence all of those things that activity

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and socializing and group activities and stuff

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bring um but yeah it's definitely they what they're

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seeing i suppose you know youtube such like that

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kind of thing is the exciting comp stuff isn't

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it and then that's what they're drawn to i would

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like to go to the climbing gym please and i want

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to try that Through the surveys that you've been

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putting out and looking at, how much are youth

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climbers usually training? Quite a lot. But is

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that inappropriate? We don't really know. But

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I have a bias because the vast majority of climbers

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that I meet are injured. So I get this impression

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that, oh gosh, all climbers are injured all the

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time. and i think for me it's more i've started

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a workshop for coaches called sharing is caring

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um whereby just just giving out a small amount

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of information but say from me to coaches which

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they're within their scope of practice are able

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to pass on to caregivers of you know and to the

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youth climbers themselves about things that we

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need to be looking out for things like that you

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know the growth plate fractures that happen that

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are still happening really commonly um well again

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i have that bias that you know i see quite a

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lot of them i think it is happening yeah yeah

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yeah yeah no definitely um and you know but in

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in any sport yeah i think about my main sport

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when i was uh a youth wasn't climbing particularly

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i didn't come across that until university really

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um was rugby um you know there were a lot of

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injuries in rugby you know it's american football

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without the pads and helmets basically um and

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yeah you know it has that inherent risk within

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it all sport and activity does doesn't it so

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i think my my issue is such is that we don't

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know i may do this research over the next

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months and come back and say oh do you know what

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it appears that climbing as a much lower risk

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of injury than other sports but at least we then

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know and maybe the youth can do a bit more yeah

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because most coaches i know are like trying to

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reign them in say like you've done enough now

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stop yeah your fingers are bleeding you know

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you you maybe need to stop now come back in a

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couple of days um yeah they're key they want

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to do more done And so what are the more common

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injuries you see within youth climbers compared

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to adult climbers? I know you mentioned growth

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plate fractures, and I think a lot of people

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who don't necessarily work with youth climbers

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a lot know what that is either. So what are growth

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plate fractures, and then what are the other

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common injuries you see? Okay, yeah. So as we

00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.720
go through those growth spurts that we're probably

00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.710
all aware of, Literally, your bones are growing

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quite rapidly. They are growing through a period

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of rapid growth. Peak height velocities is one

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of the things that we look at to see whether

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that's happening. But I tend to say to coaches,

00:12:15.029 --> 00:12:19.389
caregivers, whatever, that has that child's trousers

00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:25.090
suddenly got really short? Talk to their parents.

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Have you had to buy? two pairs of shoes um you

00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:31.129
know in the last sort of three months because

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they've grown out of them that kind of thing

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these these are the things that we need to make

00:12:35.429 --> 00:12:37.769
everybody aware of that it's during this time

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that things are a bit more vulnerable so bones

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grow from the ends they have a plate on either

00:12:44.789 --> 00:12:47.070
end where this change is happening and these

00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:49.509
new cells are being laid down and the bone is

00:12:49.509 --> 00:12:52.669
is gaining length through that while they're

00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:57.190
new and have just been laid down and then they're

00:12:57.190 --> 00:13:00.929
not quite as stable or as strong as a fully formed

00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:06.409
denser bone and so we then within the fingers

00:13:06.409 --> 00:13:10.049
take something that's compressive like a crimp

00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.009
grip and you're basically pushing a bone against

00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.450
a growth plate and it will eventually fracture

00:13:16.450 --> 00:13:21.629
it's a stress fracture not very often done acutely

00:13:21.629 --> 00:13:25.620
you know not worn incident but it will be generally

00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:29.379
a pattern of the climber feeling some pain on

00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:32.779
the back of most normally the middle finger joint

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the middle joint of the middle finger that will

00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:38.919
be sore maybe in a session but then by the time

00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.059
they climb again it's not sore anymore but this

00:13:42.059 --> 00:13:45.200
is a stress fracture at that point that's telling

00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.120
you that something is happening there not that

00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.039
we've necessarily had a fracture straight away

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But that just worsens. The pain starts earlier

00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:55.840
in the session, gets worse. They may have to

00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.000
stop a session because it's hurting. You may

00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.000
notice that they start missing sessions, you

00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.679
know, and just not coming to the planned session

00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.120
at all. And it's because of the finger pain.

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And yeah, if it's not, treatment is very simple.

00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:15.279
It is, unfortunately, if it is a fracture or

00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.379
on its way to being one, rest is the main. treatment

00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:25.279
um just to allow healing to happen but you know

00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.519
we can stop it before it gets to that point because

00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.600
that's as we're just touching on before everything

00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.620
that youth climbers get out of climbing you know

00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:35.919
even if they're mad into comps let's to be brutally

00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.279
frank not all of them are going to be yanya or

00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.620
toby or erin as it is here in the uk you know

00:14:42.620 --> 00:14:45.820
they're the absolute elite of the elite they're

00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:49.860
amazing um I was always passionate about building

00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:54.200
climbers for life, you know, that find a tribe,

00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.639
a community, something that they love and that

00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.139
they can continue doing through their life. And

00:14:59.139 --> 00:15:03.899
this can cause long lasting issues with fingers,

00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:06.980
you know, that will really bring on early onset

00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:10.960
arthritis and that type of thing if it's not

00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.620
treated well. Is there like a career ending injury?

00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:18.460
I mean, career ending. Certainly can. As a kid,

00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:22.940
but. Yeah. It will take you out for a good few

00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:26.320
weeks, you know, to months if you've got a bad

00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.460
one that needs to rest and then you need to rebuild

00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:31.000
yourself back up to where you used to be. So

00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.919
if treated, if identified and treated at the

00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:39.340
appropriate time, then no. If not, I certainly

00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:43.019
know. quite a few you know who used to be um

00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:47.820
high level competitive um youth climbers who

00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.899
you know we now speak to them and what the backstory

00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:54.480
was and why is your finger that shape you know

00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.519
why doesn't your finger straighten anymore why

00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.299
is it a bit wonky um and the backstory they talk

00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:03.659
about really fits a growth plate fracture and

00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:07.179
for those people it you know it's painful now

00:16:07.179 --> 00:16:09.970
they're in their 20s and it and it hurts to climb

00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:14.450
um what that will be in you know like myself

00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:17.690
after 30 odd years of climbing we well we don't

00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:21.309
know yet so it really is like immediately you'll

00:16:21.309 --> 00:16:23.789
you'll kind of see the effects of it yeah yeah

00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:28.250
it hurts sure yeah okay yeah and what you essentially

00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:32.309
get is is a a mal -aligned joint or you you can

00:16:32.309 --> 00:16:35.389
end up with a mal -aligned joint so a joint that's

00:16:35.389 --> 00:16:39.200
wonky And so that isn't getting loaded how it's

00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.659
supposed to. And over time, that will increase

00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:46.600
wear and such like. What other big injuries do

00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.039
you usually see in the youth scene? Youth very

00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.740
rarely get injured. I don't know, I've started

00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.600
this off saying, are they getting injured? What

00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.960
do we know about it? But they can recover an

00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.440
awful lot quicker. then you know as especially

00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.079
as they're going through these you know growth

00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.539
phases and they're growing they're just proliferating

00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:11.940
cells all over the place so you know that they

00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:16.980
can recover super super fast um there's the usuals

00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:21.619
um you do see you know shoulder problems and

00:17:21.619 --> 00:17:23.559
that kind of thing what we don't tend to see

00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.500
i suppose is like your tendon problems you know

00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:28.960
your golfer's elbow tennis elbow that kind of

00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.910
thing these real chronic um overuse type injuries

00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:36.049
but you will get yeah you know finger issues

00:17:36.049 --> 00:17:44.109
um and probably more acute um than chronic i

00:17:44.109 --> 00:17:46.829
know you also mentioned a little bit about the

00:17:46.829 --> 00:17:51.069
transition from youth to senior um i guess first

00:17:51.069 --> 00:17:53.150
of all there is like kind of a setting difference

00:17:53.150 --> 00:17:55.950
between youth comps versus senior comps do you

00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:58.490
see like big differences there in terms of body

00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:01.640
movement and how they use their yeah different

00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.619
muscles and yeah so this has been interesting

00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:08.539
and what sparked this often and what i yeah initially

00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:11.920
spoke to yourself about was this um study on

00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.279
in from from last year where they looked at the

00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.160
helsinki youth world championships and the soul

00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.059
world championships and they're doing these the

00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:26.299
um this person is matthias i do hope i've i've

00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:29.960
said that correctly apologies if not really detailed

00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:35.559
statistical look at wall angles hold types what

00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.539
it takes to get to the zones you know it was

00:18:38.539 --> 00:18:41.420
it a technical move was it a physical move is

00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:44.400
the zone hold a pinch or a crimp and so that

00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.819
some things that came out were that the youth

00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:51.480
athletes for example tried harder for longer

00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:55.180
yeah they took more attempts to get boulder problems

00:18:56.509 --> 00:18:59.210
generally two more attempts I think it was off

00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:02.710
the top of my head between you know on each boulder

00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:06.089
now that adds up doesn't it you know that's the

00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:10.609
significant amount of load we all see you know

00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:13.869
and it's spoken about a lot with commentators

00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:16.849
isn't it that they'll say oh we've you know such

00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:20.960
and such flashed the problem They've only climbed

00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.500
once. It took 30 seconds. They've effectively

00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:26.680
got three and a half minutes of rest longer than

00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.920
the other person. And they're off the mats and

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.319
sat out in the back in isolation again. So the

00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.900
youth were, yeah, in some ways getting more load

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:41.440
in that. 50 % roughly of the athletes who reached

00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.559
the semifinals in the Youth World Championships

00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:50.220
had Senior World Cup. experience in the same

00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:54.859
season so are they i'm sure this is being managed

00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:57.380
but this is the kind of thinking that that i'm

00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.660
i'm doing on this you know are they doing both

00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:05.799
is that quite a lot you know have has somebody

00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:08.980
done pretty much a full world cup season and

00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:11.940
then stuck a youth world cup in and then maybe

00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:14.940
gone even to the senior world cup as well as

00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:19.750
a as an under 19 and everything going back to

00:20:19.750 --> 00:20:22.390
the start saying you know this information will

00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:27.750
be useful for coaches and such like to more efficient

00:20:27.750 --> 00:20:32.529
developmental pathways and we have these youth

00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:34.789
development models long -term athlete development

00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.269
models all this kind of thing these structures

00:20:37.269 --> 00:20:41.369
I was touched on earlier what that is is funneling

00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:44.990
we'd start off with 10 ,000 climbers we create

00:20:44.990 --> 00:20:48.720
or not create but we end up with one toby roberts

00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.039
yeah we identify talent we bring these people

00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.740
in we work them really hard to achieve their

00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:58.359
potential and such that and that's you know that

00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:02.740
that sport no criticism from me in that way what

00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:06.140
happens to all the ones who don't make it because

00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:11.160
i went on the ifsc world climbing website last

00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.099
night actually and had a look through the names

00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:17.130
of the people that were reaching the the finals

00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:20.190
or won the finals of the youth world of world

00:21:20.190 --> 00:21:22.529
championships and that kind of thing there's

00:21:22.529 --> 00:21:25.569
not a lot of them i sort of recognized and thought

00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:29.690
oh yeah they're now an international competitor

00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:34.829
you know we know early specialization is generally

00:21:34.829 --> 00:21:37.789
not a good thing you mean like specifically within

00:21:37.789 --> 00:21:41.289
climbing or within all sport yeah within all

00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:47.710
sport it's recognized as uh you may well become

00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:51.990
very proficient at that one sport that you're

00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:55.369
doing but if when it comes to time to mature

00:21:55.369 --> 00:22:00.569
your body doesn't fit the profile if that makes

00:22:00.569 --> 00:22:04.690
sense then you may not you know you might be

00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:08.130
fantastic as a youth athlete but not actually

00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:11.849
develop into such a uh genetically gifted because

00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:13.869
if we're talking you know the toby roberts the

00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:17.890
errands you know that type of thing then on top

00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:20.569
of all their hard work dedication not taking

00:22:20.569 --> 00:22:22.849
anything away from that is you know they've got

00:22:22.849 --> 00:22:25.529
the genetics as well so yeah there's a huge dropout

00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:29.650
or can be a huge dropout along with early specialization

00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:32.910
and also more injury because they're only doing

00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:39.690
one activity and it's repetitive and They don't

00:22:39.690 --> 00:22:42.710
develop movement patterns and spatial awareness

00:22:42.710 --> 00:22:45.109
from something like, I don't know, playing soccer

00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:49.490
or volleyball or something that's just got different,

00:22:49.589 --> 00:22:52.109
lots of lateral movement, push, jump, sprint

00:22:52.109 --> 00:22:54.829
forward, sprint back. And then we look at what

00:22:54.829 --> 00:22:57.450
we've got going on on the wall now with all the

00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:00.089
amazing coordination moves and that kind of thing.

00:23:00.509 --> 00:23:03.109
They need that. I don't know if you want to make

00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:05.390
a general recommendation there, but I guess then

00:23:05.390 --> 00:23:08.039
is the... Is the recommendation kind of like

00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:12.380
for most youth athletes, they shouldn't focus

00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.759
solely on climbing because maybe their bodies

00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.160
aren't like meant to climb long term? Is that

00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.779
kind of what you're saying? Well, there's few

00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:25.440
things that I generally feel confident enough

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.480
to say yes or no on. I'll always qualify things

00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:30.859
as some kind of a gray area of what about this

00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.569
and what about that. But in this, yes. that there's

00:23:34.569 --> 00:23:38.630
just so much research that says when you're developing

00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:41.549
growing as an athlete as a person as you know

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:44.549
as a child you should experience lots and lots

00:23:44.549 --> 00:23:46.910
of different things and you should maybe have

00:23:46.910 --> 00:23:49.589
an on season and an off season and you should

00:23:49.589 --> 00:23:51.710
be doing different things now for a lot of people

00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:55.609
um you know what you might do at school could

00:23:55.609 --> 00:23:58.150
be enough you know if you're climbing and training

00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:01.190
outside of school and in school you have physical

00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:05.240
education and you you're playing soccer you're

00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.220
playing basketball you're playing you know different

00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:11.160
things a couple of times a week that you know

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.380
that's enough that's okay um but i also see i

00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:19.700
had a um patient a couple of months ago again

00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.099
another one that sort of sticks in my mind young

00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:26.059
uh male youth climber was getting the results

00:24:26.059 --> 00:24:29.640
in competitions and he his dad asked if i still

00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.549
coached Because he'd stepped away from a squad

00:24:33.549 --> 00:24:37.029
and that was because he was getting pressured

00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:39.210
and being told that he wasn't committed enough

00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:42.349
and he wasn't coming enough times a week and

00:24:42.349 --> 00:24:45.369
he wasn't doing enough and this, that and the

00:24:45.369 --> 00:24:50.890
other. But he obviously loved climbing, wanted

00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:53.430
to do other things as well though with it. The

00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:58.029
coach had had a, what we say, a heated debate,

00:24:58.190 --> 00:25:02.599
a strong discussion. um between the parents and

00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.720
and the coach um and yeah basically said that

00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.400
they need to show more commitment or they're

00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.440
not welcome on the team and that's like ah man

00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.319
because that could have put that person off from

00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.880
from climbing for life if nothing else couldn't

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.539
it or they go the other way and start just only

00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:24.599
doing climbing and as much as i love climbing

00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.029
there is you know there are other things what

00:25:27.029 --> 00:25:29.609
about for like the youth climbers who want to

00:25:29.609 --> 00:25:34.470
be like the next toby or aaron yeah and i'm sure

00:25:34.470 --> 00:25:39.529
but i'm not sure but i you know you look at the

00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:44.430
the the top climbers both compound and outdoors

00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:50.569
they probably did just climb you know and so

00:25:50.569 --> 00:25:52.349
that but they're all what if you think you're

00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:55.799
one of them yeah yeah yeah and you might be and

00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.039
and so you know this is the guidance that we

00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.400
need isn't it because what do we do when we find

00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.579
this one intergenerational talent that you know

00:26:03.579 --> 00:26:05.920
that's like oh my gosh this person is going to

00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.660
set the climbing world on fire or that so you

00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:12.019
know um gosh i've forgotten his name now uh

00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:15.599
year old who climbed 9a boulder out outdoors

00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.259
last week or the other week you know this kind

00:26:18.259 --> 00:26:21.579
of thing is is going on and he's 16. so should

00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:24.779
we treat him the same as other 16 year olds no

00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:29.339
um that tips in then into like the under 17 under

00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:32.940
19 athlete side of things in in the world cups

00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:37.640
um and the world championships rather um that's

00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.980
brilliant they've bumped the age up from 16 to

00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:43.640
17 just as a recognition that a level of physical

00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:48.099
maturity is required but there's outliers a young

00:26:48.099 --> 00:26:54.160
man i used to um coach is now like flashing v

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.259
that kind of thing and is about six foot two

00:26:57.259 --> 00:27:00.700
um he was the smallest in his year at school

00:27:00.700 --> 00:27:04.400
every year and was you know sadly teased about

00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.480
it a bit because he was distinctly smaller than

00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.559
than everybody else until he was about 16. he

00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.180
was yeah he was a really late developer um then

00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:17.859
you get early developers then you get people

00:27:17.859 --> 00:27:21.660
who were just you know said that that young guy

00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:26.180
hasn't got 20 years of hard training behind him

00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:28.619
he can't have he's only 16 and yet he's developed

00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:30.519
the finger strength and the movement and the

00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.839
skills you know and everything to to pull on

00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:38.700
you know folder 9a halt so he is different but

00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:42.619
that needs to work both ways doesn't it that

00:27:42.619 --> 00:27:44.359
you need to recognise that some people are going

00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.940
to develop later and need to be treated slightly

00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:50.900
differently. And they need to be educated about

00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:54.819
that. That's with the young guy I'm thinking

00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:57.660
about. You know, we used to speak about it reasonably

00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.119
regularly. It was hard for him, definitely. It

00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.839
was tough. But we spoke with parents as well

00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.599
and that kind of thing. You know, it's like your

00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.180
time will come. And he now, you know, he wins.

00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:11.089
local comps and that kind of thing and he's still

00:28:11.089 --> 00:28:13.890
climbing this is the thing you know for me um

00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:16.230
that we got through that it wasn't all about

00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:19.029
his results on the day we didn't always pull

00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:21.549
the oh it's not your fault you're too short card

00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:24.430
you know we worked around it and talked around

00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:27.690
it and it's just having that that awareness that

00:28:27.690 --> 00:28:31.549
knowledge for coaches um and i'm sure as i say

00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:34.069
by the time we get to you know international

00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:36.150
level and national level and that kind of thing

00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:39.730
that's there but what funnels into that are these

00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:42.690
now thousands of coaches that there are out there

00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:48.250
yeah um yeah working with thousands and thousands

00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:50.730
of kids i mean you mentioned like tending to

00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:53.250
not see too many injuries within youth climbers

00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:55.589
is it kind of like if you are a youth climber

00:28:55.589 --> 00:28:58.250
and you do get like a crazy injury like a growth

00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:03.049
plate fracture some other kind of um like bigger

00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:05.509
injury other than just like oh this hurts a little

00:29:05.509 --> 00:29:09.130
bit is it kind of like a sign that this isn't

00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:12.990
for you in that way in the least depressing way

00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:17.950
possible no no definitely not no um you know

00:29:17.950 --> 00:29:20.930
injuries are about load manage or the injuries

00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:23.549
such as that are about load management there's

00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:26.789
certainly in adults we know that over 90 of the

00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:30.309
the injuries that occur are overuse or chronic

00:29:30.309 --> 00:29:34.470
injuries yeah and that's load management that's

00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:38.549
that individual doing too much too often if you

00:29:38.549 --> 00:29:43.509
had somebody that was displaying a you know an

00:29:43.509 --> 00:29:47.450
unusual amount of say joint related injuries

00:29:47.450 --> 00:29:52.029
going off then you know again as a coach you

00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:55.910
need to spot that and be aware of that and then

00:29:55.910 --> 00:29:59.039
do something about it and this is what this sharing

00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.500
is caring kind of thing is about is it's having

00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:05.819
these links it's having the that's unusual I'll

00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:09.180
speak to Andy about that yeah and then Andy might

00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:12.039
say no that all sounds totally fine you know

00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:13.819
look at this that the other but that you know

00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:16.359
all sounds good or he might say that sounds like

00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.779
somebody potentially might have a hypermobility

00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:21.279
syndrome and we could do with getting that checked

00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:25.859
out so yes that person may need you know some

00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:32.079
extra but yeah i think it'd be yeah just because

00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.019
you've got a growth plate fracture you wouldn't

00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:38.900
uh there's certainly some high level pro climbers

00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:41.700
that when i because i because i do because i'm

00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.259
a bit sad when i zoom in on their hands and things

00:30:44.259 --> 00:30:48.599
in photos and videos i look at and i think yeah

00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:53.190
you know oh you can see it really Yeah, there's

00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.630
some, I obviously won't mention who, but yeah,

00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:57.230
some that you look at and you think, oh, wow,

00:30:57.309 --> 00:31:00.789
that's more than sort of like adaptation potentially,

00:31:01.009 --> 00:31:04.230
more than not. And we do know, for example, that

00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:06.950
if you've ever heard of Volker Schoffel, who's

00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:12.269
a German orthopedic surgeon who specialises in

00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:15.549
climbing injuries, he's probably the person that's

00:31:15.549 --> 00:31:18.910
driven climbing research as far as injuries goes.

00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:24.799
the most and you know they he's put information

00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:29.779
out there definitely that um there are changes

00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:33.539
that go on within high -level elite youth climbers

00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:36.640
within their hands that would appear to suggest

00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.200
you know very early osteoarthritic changes within

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.799
the hands now that's not quite as disastrous

00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:48.940
as it sounds but where's that going to end up

00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:53.029
um we don't know because we've not had a generation

00:31:53.029 --> 00:31:55.849
who you know started climbing super hard at the

00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:59.829
age of four before yeah you know and they've

00:31:59.829 --> 00:32:04.150
just always climbed um so yeah we don't we don't

00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:07.029
really know i guess sort of a sidebar i don't

00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:10.589
really know what arthritis in the hands looks

00:32:10.589 --> 00:32:13.329
like and i am like personally worried that that'll

00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:16.009
happen just because i mean i always have like

00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:19.769
really bad um like around the like the middle

00:32:19.769 --> 00:32:23.950
joints, like the pain there. And I mean, it kind

00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:27.769
of sounds like that's what it is. So I'm like,

00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:30.910
well, do I already have that? Like, is that just

00:32:30.910 --> 00:32:33.170
something that comes with climbing? Like, I don't

00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:35.970
know. Okay. So as a general, another thing that

00:32:35.970 --> 00:32:40.329
is totally unconnected to the fact that we were

00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:43.650
discussing earlier that I've just turned 50 and

00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:46.309
it's nothing to do with that. Another workshop

00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:50.349
I do is. it's called aging with optimism yeah

00:32:50.349 --> 00:32:53.549
and and it's it's about looking at a few of these

00:32:53.549 --> 00:32:56.430
things you know not necessarily busting myths

00:32:56.430 --> 00:32:59.109
or anything super exciting like that but educating

00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:03.230
people around what aging actually is what is

00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:05.710
good for us what may not be too much you know

00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:09.549
that that type of thing and so super often gets

00:33:09.549 --> 00:33:12.200
asked what about you know my fingers arthritis

00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.099
that kind of thing real quick if you love comp

00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:17.099
climbing and want to join a community who has

00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:19.819
the same level of psych you do check out my comp

00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:22.480
climbing discord it's free to join and we have

00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.440
live discussions during comps our own fantasy

00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.539
climbing leagues and general chat about all things

00:33:28.539 --> 00:33:32.220
climbing related even outdoor climbing link is

00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:35.299
in the description now back to the show so when

00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:40.230
we look at runners marathon runners so people

00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:43.289
who are going to wear their knees out yeah is

00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:47.289
what people think if you're a recreational level

00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:51.569
marathon runner then you will have more cartilage

00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:54.950
in your knee usually than somebody who doesn't

00:33:54.950 --> 00:34:00.490
run yeah so if you use your fingers sensibly

00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:04.029
and build up over time and are consistent with

00:34:04.029 --> 00:34:08.329
what you do with them you will get robust fingers

00:34:08.329 --> 00:34:12.929
you may get some enlarging of bones yeah and

00:34:12.929 --> 00:34:16.710
joint knuckles can enlarge just because they're

00:34:16.710 --> 00:34:19.449
being loaded that will happen that's the body's

00:34:19.449 --> 00:34:22.610
response that bone is getting loaded heavily

00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:25.730
a lot we need to reinforce it so that type of

00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:27.690
thing can happen connective tissue and such like

00:34:27.690 --> 00:34:31.710
grows as well and it becomes more dense and more

00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:37.650
robust um elite marathon runners I believe are

00:34:37.650 --> 00:34:42.789
something like four times more likely to need

00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.909
a knee replacement than people who don't run.

00:34:46.849 --> 00:34:51.349
So there's this using your fingers a lot, but

00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:54.809
allowing recovery sensibly, variation of load,

00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:56.750
different grip types, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:34:56.949 --> 00:35:02.690
And then there's elite level. And elite athletes

00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:07.559
push themselves beyond what? they probably should

00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.320
to be honest you know in their drive to to get

00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.639
better and you know do more and yeah win essentially

00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.579
and compete isn't it um so for most of us just

00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:23.659
climbing if we're doing it in a thought out way

00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:28.539
and allowing recovery um i'm responding early

00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:33.250
to like my middle fingers always hurt after a

00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:36.210
climbing session yeah that that that's you know

00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:38.670
a little signal to you isn't it that maybe you

00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:40.550
could do with getting that checked out and finding

00:35:40.550 --> 00:35:43.989
out what's going on which you know if that's

00:35:43.989 --> 00:35:46.469
been going on for a short time by which i mean

00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:49.730
a few weeks or months even it's often people

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:52.250
will come to me it's not unusual and they'll

00:35:52.250 --> 00:35:54.090
be like this has been hurting for about a year

00:35:54.090 --> 00:36:00.360
you know um then yeah that's not it's highly

00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.460
unlikely to be you know early onset arthritis

00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:05.900
at that point that's the precursors the things

00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:08.320
that can happen that if we don't address it and

00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:10.440
don't look at it and don't find out what's going

00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:14.639
on yeah then that potentially could speed up

00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.340
the process of arthritis but arthritis yeah on

00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:20.420
that note is is happening in all of us every

00:36:20.420 --> 00:36:23.400
day it's it's just part of the aging process

00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:27.699
as our systems get less efficient throughout

00:36:27.699 --> 00:36:31.440
the whole body then so do our joints if you like

00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.719
you know that that process of the the response

00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.780
of cartilage to load becomes a little less efficient

00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:44.440
you know as we age um yeah you know that all

00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:49.739
said i know so many older climbers now who were

00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:54.079
you know being sensible about what they do approaching

00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.059
training building on their experience and their

00:36:58.059 --> 00:37:00.840
knowledge and what they've built up over decades

00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.639
and still cranking really hard. I think I was

00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:07.820
just asking like what arthritis actually feels

00:37:07.820 --> 00:37:11.159
like. Because I mean, I've had synovitis for

00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.980
years and I know people who've had it for years.

00:37:13.219 --> 00:37:16.619
And so my fingers hurt all the time for like

00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:20.400
years. And so I'm like, is that the same thing?

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:25.400
So synovitis is one of those precursors. you

00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:28.960
know the joint is becoming irritated and it's

00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.980
the inflammatory chemicals and the inflammatory

00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.559
response from the joint being irritated within

00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:40.940
the joint capsule that is it's it's a negative

00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:46.420
effect if you like on the joint and so instead

00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:50.260
of the cartilage recovering and replenishing

00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:53.360
itself and re -oiling itself and filling itself

00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.840
with all its nutrients and such like again that

00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.619
doesn't quite happen by the time you go climbing

00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:02.079
on it again so yes you know if you've been suffering

00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.199
some sign of itis in fingers for years then that's

00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.099
something i would say that you need to do something

00:38:10.099 --> 00:38:15.719
about if you you know but it's also really really

00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.380
common because often it's not enough to stop

00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:22.219
us you know it might be sore after a session

00:38:22.219 --> 00:38:24.079
and you're like oh you know the next morning

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.699
you wake up you know oh blimey but then by the

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:28.539
time you've had your morning coffee and you've

00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:31.400
got into the day it's settled it feels okay and

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:34.300
then you can climb again the next time and i

00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:37.179
think it's just part of human nature that something's

00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:40.059
got to become quite a big priority for people

00:38:40.059 --> 00:38:44.920
to take time and money out of their their life

00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:49.440
you know to come and get help about it So, yeah,

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.340
as much as I love seeing people early with things,

00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:56.340
I do also understand why that doesn't happen

00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:59.059
very often. And so then I guess in terms of injuries

00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:02.119
that you had seen for climbers transitioning

00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.800
from youth to senior in the comp circuit, what

00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:07.940
would you say that people should watch out for?

00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:13.380
Overuse. It's overtraining, isn't it? It's not

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:17.119
so much in the comps. We've spoken before, haven't

00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.829
we, about... you know what injuries in comps

00:39:21.829 --> 00:39:26.909
getting you know pretty rare no real like horrendous

00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:29.489
falls you know there's the rules in now aren't

00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:31.590
there about you know downward dyno type things

00:39:31.590 --> 00:39:35.989
and that kind of stuff um so the injuries really

00:39:35.989 --> 00:39:43.690
happen not in a comp so much yeah um it's it's

00:39:43.690 --> 00:39:46.429
more within the training and the you know the

00:39:46.429 --> 00:39:50.300
general day -to -day one that i do see quite

00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:52.639
a lot that's worth sort of putting out there

00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:57.159
in general um but does happen to comp climbers

00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:03.539
who are very capable you know incredibly strong

00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:08.519
able to perform outdoors is is bouldering injuries

00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:13.619
of like not stacking maps properly turning an

00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:17.139
ankle on mats that kind of thing now again that

00:40:17.139 --> 00:40:20.260
kind of thing can just happen you know that you

00:40:20.260 --> 00:40:22.460
could have stacked everything totally okay blah

00:40:22.460 --> 00:40:24.679
blah blah something you know slightly unforeseen

00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:29.800
has happened and accidents do happen um but if

00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:33.199
what tends to happen around about certainly in

00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:38.139
the uk uh the sort of 17 year old when they start

00:40:38.139 --> 00:40:40.960
to drive And then suddenly they've got access

00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.840
to be able to maybe get outdoors and go and have

00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.960
a boulder outdoors and that type of thing. And

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.340
then getting injured on an outdoor climbing day,

00:40:51.500 --> 00:40:55.619
you know, a bad ankle sprain can keep you out

00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:59.980
longer than a growth plate fracture. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:06.099
So, yeah, these injuries tend to be outside of

00:41:06.099 --> 00:41:08.309
the comp arena. Yeah, let's get into that a bit.

00:41:08.369 --> 00:41:11.409
So you're starting to actually see a lot more

00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:15.230
for like youth comp athletes. You're starting

00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:18.030
to see a lot more like outdoor related injuries

00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:20.989
rather than like comp related injuries. Yeah,

00:41:20.989 --> 00:41:25.869
I think a lot of acute injuries do tend to be

00:41:25.869 --> 00:41:27.949
your, you know, your ankle sprain, that type

00:41:27.949 --> 00:41:30.369
of thing, you know, or fall related injuries.

00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:35.070
And I was thinking about this. And if you've

00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:38.579
spent your entire time from you know a young

00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:41.139
age thousands and thousands and thousands of

00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:43.539
falls probably from all sorts of different angles

00:41:43.539 --> 00:41:46.019
you should be like you know they're super adapted

00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:48.400
to that that's how these athletes can can fall

00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:51.199
off and you know we all go oh and and yet they

00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.079
pull off the landing and they're okay um because

00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.039
yeah they're just so attuned to it they've practiced

00:41:56.039 --> 00:42:00.780
it's a skill for them but that's on a mat that

00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:06.400
has a fixed kind of density It's level, obviously.

00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.380
It's always in the same place, if that makes

00:42:09.380 --> 00:42:13.679
sense. You know where you are and you know where

00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:16.639
the mat is. And then you go outside and you've

00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:20.420
got an uneven level. The ground might be sloping

00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:22.840
away, so you're landing on one leg more than

00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.199
the other. Or you may build it up, but you've

00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:29.250
got your friend's really old pad. on the top

00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:31.670
that's got really soft foaming and you've got

00:42:31.670 --> 00:42:33.550
your brand new one because you just started going

00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:35.610
outdoor bouldering and that's really firm and

00:42:35.610 --> 00:42:39.269
hard one leg lands on either you know these are

00:42:39.269 --> 00:42:42.369
small things but they can have big effects now

00:42:42.369 --> 00:42:45.190
you know for somebody to be out for a few weeks

00:42:45.190 --> 00:42:49.530
of climbing when you're 50 i i can be a bit more

00:42:49.530 --> 00:42:52.170
philosophical about that and like okay that's

00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:55.190
a tiny tiny part of my climbing life and climbing

00:42:55.190 --> 00:42:59.320
career but for a 17 year old keep using this

00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:00.980
example as somebody that's getting out there

00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:04.039
and able to climb outdoors that's massive especially

00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:07.059
if it's comp season you know that kind of thing

00:43:07.059 --> 00:43:10.599
um yeah you know it can be really really bad

00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.239
effect for physically mentally you know all of

00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.760
that side of things and it sees small small things

00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:22.440
so yeah if you're if you're not just youth really

00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.760
if you're generally an indoor climber and you're

00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.699
going outdoor bouldering yeah it's Not the safest.

00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.639
Be careful. Yeah, especially when you're used

00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:34.340
to those big falls during comps. I mean, you

00:43:34.340 --> 00:43:36.659
see some crazy falls during comps and then they

00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:40.860
roll all the way out, even past the mat in comps

00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:43.860
sometimes. And if you and your friend have gone

00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:46.059
climbing and you've got one bouldering pad each

00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:47.820
because that's all you've been able to afford

00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:51.360
and that's all you've got, then that's not that

00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.300
big a landing area. You're probably not going

00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:55.500
to be able to roll. You're probably not going

00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:59.789
to tumble. and take a spin yeah and even spotting

00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.570
you know that they're often not used to being

00:44:02.570 --> 00:44:07.369
spotted or spotting other people um it used to

00:44:07.369 --> 00:44:10.489
be quite common indoors i'd very rarely see it

00:44:10.489 --> 00:44:13.550
now i think it's kind of like almost discouraged

00:44:13.550 --> 00:44:16.789
to spot indoors it's kind of like why yeah i

00:44:16.789 --> 00:44:18.690
hadn't really thought about that until i just

00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:20.510
said it then and i'm just something like yeah

00:44:20.510 --> 00:44:24.090
yeah we don't if anything maybe it's like more

00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:27.320
dangerous to spot because it's like well yeah

00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:32.500
you are going to change the pattern of that that

00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:34.699
climate if they're falling and they're detecting

00:44:34.699 --> 00:44:37.199
and planning as they're falling you know these

00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.380
thoughtless calculations millions of times a

00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:41.940
second as we're doing this and then somebody

00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:47.460
pushes them then actually yeah maybe and i suppose

00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.920
really spotting came about from outdoors where

00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.480
you had to keep the person on that mat because

00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:56.920
you only had one mat and they couldn't roll and

00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:00.300
they can yeah but maybe yeah so and then with

00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.079
like outdoor climbing maybe there is kind of

00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:07.500
some sense to if you're serious about the competition

00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:10.219
scene i know i've heard i don't know if this

00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:12.639
is true but i heard people saying like in japan

00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:14.360
the cop climbers aren't allowed to go and climb

00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:16.539
outside i don't know about not being allowed

00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:18.639
and again this comes down to you know coaches

00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:20.639
and the relationship they have with their coach

00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.840
and that kind of thing don't they i certainly

00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:26.480
knew a coach a good long uh time ago now since

00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:28.820
about 15 years or so ago who coached all the

00:45:28.820 --> 00:45:32.900
really successful indoor uh uk climbers and would

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.980
really discourage it wouldn't be like no you're

00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:39.159
banned you're not doing that but would yeah discourage

00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.760
it both for that and because the movement was

00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.659
different and they didn't want different movement

00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:47.079
patterns coming especially if they're inexperienced

00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.400
now my solution to that as a coach would be let's

00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.389
go climbing yeah let's get our pads let's show

00:45:54.389 --> 00:45:58.650
you how to build a decent uh landing let's look

00:45:58.650 --> 00:46:00.949
at the things that you need to you know look

00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:06.010
at it may definitely be worth you know not going

00:46:06.010 --> 00:46:10.989
for a boulder in the run -up to a comp you know

00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:15.010
if you're in training mode i'm training now for

00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:17.369
this you know what a peak in three months time

00:46:17.369 --> 00:46:21.099
for this particular then yeah you know I can

00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:23.039
certainly think of and I wouldn't be unfair on

00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.920
people and point people out but certainly you

00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.039
know well known to within the climbing media

00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.280
of quite a lot of people who've injured themselves

00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.639
and then not being able to go to comps and it

00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:34.800
hasn't happened in a comp it's happened outdoor

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.119
climbing yeah I mean I guess like thinking of

00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:40.559
the comp scene I know like Max had recently come

00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.889
back from Ankle foot injury? Yeah, a foot injury.

00:46:45.949 --> 00:46:50.269
I did a talk with Max and Molly Thompson -Smith

00:46:50.269 --> 00:46:53.710
at the Kendall Film Festival at the end of last

00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:58.010
year when we were talking about injuries and

00:46:58.010 --> 00:47:00.929
how they deal with it and that kind of thing

00:47:00.929 --> 00:47:05.769
with the drive and the pressures and such that

00:47:05.769 --> 00:47:08.369
they have. It was really quite interesting. And

00:47:08.369 --> 00:47:10.690
yes, he's come back from that. quite successfully

00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:13.409
it would appear from the uh from the thing that

00:47:13.409 --> 00:47:17.909
he did there yeah but he's competing today um

00:47:17.909 --> 00:47:20.909
at one of the walls i work out of is called boulder

00:47:20.909 --> 00:47:24.869
uk um and they have their big competition on

00:47:24.869 --> 00:47:28.530
this weekend it's the plywood masters um and

00:47:28.530 --> 00:47:32.409
so medj is there uh with max and emma that you

00:47:32.409 --> 00:47:34.690
interviewed a few weeks ago and a lot of the

00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:38.070
the gb lots are pretty big a big competition

00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:41.719
is ifsc style that qualifies for yesterday and

00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:43.820
they've got semis and finals and stuff today

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:48.599
um yeah that'll be cool but yeah was his injury

00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:51.179
like outdoor related and then is this like kind

00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:53.900
of what triggered your no it was a a fracture

00:47:53.900 --> 00:47:57.639
within his foot but not an acute one um and essentially

00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:00.780
potentially i don't know that this is from chatting

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:04.139
with him sort of on stage and such like um just

00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:08.059
from doing an absolute ton of you know run jump

00:48:08.809 --> 00:48:13.329
type oh really work um oh god and and like with

00:48:13.329 --> 00:48:15.329
any if you think you know the the shoes that

00:48:15.329 --> 00:48:18.090
comp climbers wear are soft aren't they it's

00:48:18.090 --> 00:48:22.050
not a supportive kind of a shoe and if he was

00:48:22.050 --> 00:48:24.469
again i'm speculating slightly here but if he

00:48:24.469 --> 00:48:27.449
was in a phase where he was like right i'm really

00:48:27.449 --> 00:48:29.670
drilling these i'm gonna this is gonna be the

00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:33.690
focus um and a pretty you know unexpected sort

00:48:33.690 --> 00:48:36.469
of consequence load management which is always

00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:38.739
easy with hindsight load management is really

00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:40.920
difficult it's always easy to look back and go

00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.380
oh yeah i went from doing a few jumps a session

00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:49.460
to doing a hundred jumps a session you know that

00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:53.599
might have an effect somewhere but as a fairly

00:48:53.599 --> 00:49:00.920
zeroed in focused athlete um yeah he set to it

00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.920
and yeah then ended up with the fractured bone

00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.400
in his foot okay i thought that was maybe from

00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:09.789
outdoors but Well, he did things the other way.

00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:15.829
He went with his injury and I think he was still

00:49:15.829 --> 00:49:20.489
in an air cast boot at the point and flashed

00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:26.829
a famous 8B boulder. Oh, right. Yeah, with no

00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:29.829
feet. Put the boot on. Yeah, I did hear about

00:49:29.829 --> 00:49:33.530
that. It's quite a high one as well. It's not

00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:37.920
a... It's not like a little low ball that wouldn't

00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.360
have mattered if he'd fallen off it. Oh, gosh.

00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:42.940
He was talking about that, though, and there

00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:44.840
was, as with all these things, there was a lot

00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:47.599
more thought and whatever that went into that

00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:49.739
process and discussion with various people. He

00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.679
didn't just suddenly, you know, the day after

00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.579
breaking his foot, think, right, I'm off to go

00:49:54.579 --> 00:49:57.880
and do the ace foot. There were actually kind

00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:01.519
of a lot of, like, big -name injuries this year,

00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:06.019
along with, like, Toby's injury. Natalia also

00:50:06.019 --> 00:50:08.000
coming back from an injury. Yeah, there's a lot.

00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:13.880
Yeah. I don't know whether, you know, we've now

00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:18.219
got a real circuit, haven't we? My sort of slight

00:50:18.219 --> 00:50:23.980
comparison would be to women's soccer, where

00:50:23.980 --> 00:50:27.539
there appear to be these really high injury rates

00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:32.639
compared to men's soccer. We think part of that

00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.480
is a gender difference, a sex difference, that

00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.280
type of thing. But it's also the fact that these

00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.699
athletes have never been operating at that level

00:50:42.699 --> 00:50:47.159
that many times before. They've got a Premier

00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:49.739
League to play in. They've got European Cups.

00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.780
They've got World Cups. They've got all of this

00:50:52.780 --> 00:50:56.539
volume to do now. Whereas before, that was never

00:50:56.539 --> 00:51:01.590
there. injury rates increasing within comp climbers

00:51:01.590 --> 00:51:07.710
or are people now feeling more at ease with saying

00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:11.510
i've got an injury because it has almost in the

00:51:11.510 --> 00:51:14.469
past been seen as a weakness for somebody like

00:51:14.469 --> 00:51:18.429
erin uh not so long ago um who you know put on

00:51:18.429 --> 00:51:20.250
social media and she basically you know i'm having

00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:22.210
a bit of a break for the sake of my mental health

00:51:22.210 --> 00:51:25.289
and the response to that now is like that sounds

00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:28.449
sensible good on you yeah rather than like oh

00:51:29.019 --> 00:51:33.340
you know what's going on there um yeah and that

00:51:33.340 --> 00:51:35.719
you know just showing that they're they're people

00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:41.440
not just these athletic robots and so yeah are

00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:45.500
people you know admitting that they've got injuries

00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:48.420
instead of competing when maybe they shouldn't

00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:50.840
you know are we making more sensible decisions

00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:55.599
or are we doing so much with our climbers now

00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:58.889
that there's this constant Right, because even

00:51:58.889 --> 00:52:03.250
within the comp scene, as in, you know, the structured

00:52:03.250 --> 00:52:07.590
IFSC type stuff, there's all these comps that,

00:52:07.610 --> 00:52:08.929
you know, like we were just talking about, the

00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:11.610
Plywood Masters and the weekend before was Last

00:52:11.610 --> 00:52:14.550
Sundance is another sort of quite big one here

00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:18.170
in the UK. Then it's going to be Quiff. Oh, wow.

00:52:18.710 --> 00:52:22.889
Yeah. It's a long season, yeah. Yeah, it's never

00:52:22.889 --> 00:52:24.309
-ending. Or it's not even the season, it's like

00:52:24.309 --> 00:52:27.539
off -season still. Yeah, so this is... yeah this

00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:30.260
is athletes for you isn't it you know they don't

00:52:30.260 --> 00:52:32.079
want an off season they want to just keep going

00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:35.559
they they don't have that belief um that actually

00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:37.400
a bit of time off is really good for you and

00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:41.360
you'll come back maybe a bit better but it's

00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:46.179
also this these comps like flywoodson are put

00:52:46.179 --> 00:52:49.380
there purposely in the run -up to comp season

00:52:49.380 --> 00:52:51.639
this is what they use as their sharpener to get

00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.789
back into comp prior to, which is why you get

00:52:54.789 --> 00:52:57.469
people like Max and Majdeen. Cool. Makes sense.

00:52:57.849 --> 00:53:01.369
Well, let's get into a couple of the audience

00:53:01.369 --> 00:53:03.510
submitted questions. We've got a couple here.

00:53:04.190 --> 00:53:08.010
Yeah. So the first one, what are the most common

00:53:08.010 --> 00:53:10.510
injuries in your experience for adults who are

00:53:10.510 --> 00:53:13.329
breaking into the comp scene without having any

00:53:13.329 --> 00:53:16.750
like previous youth comp experience? Okay. That's

00:53:16.750 --> 00:53:19.409
an interesting one, isn't it? If you see that

00:53:19.409 --> 00:53:22.369
much, I don't know. It's not one that I see that

00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:25.829
much. um but if they're getting into like the

00:53:25.829 --> 00:53:28.250
comp scene i'm presuming that meaning you know

00:53:28.250 --> 00:53:30.389
as i was just touching on there's a competition

00:53:30.389 --> 00:53:33.849
every week you know within each area not necessarily

00:53:33.849 --> 00:53:36.789
just in the uk and that you could certainly go

00:53:36.789 --> 00:53:40.369
to it would be volume it would be most likely

00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:45.289
i would suggest elbow issues um of comp style

00:53:45.289 --> 00:53:49.670
slapping banging jumping paddling you know that

00:53:49.670 --> 00:53:53.309
type of thing but then also A lot of them tend

00:53:53.309 --> 00:53:55.489
to have some kind of a scramble format at the

00:53:55.489 --> 00:54:00.590
start or, you know, 30 problems to climb of ascending

00:54:00.590 --> 00:54:03.190
difficulty and how you approach that and how

00:54:03.190 --> 00:54:05.489
you manage that. You can easily overload yourself

00:54:05.489 --> 00:54:08.469
by just starting at number one and trying to

00:54:08.469 --> 00:54:10.789
work your way up to number 30 is not always the

00:54:10.789 --> 00:54:14.789
way to do it. So, yeah, I would suggest it's

00:54:14.789 --> 00:54:19.550
most likely to be chronic, you know, some kind

00:54:19.550 --> 00:54:22.039
of a tendinopathy. particularly elbows, I would

00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:26.219
think. Comp style problems now, not many crimps

00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:29.139
around, really. So probably not crimp related.

00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.079
The second part of the question was any generalist

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:35.760
advice you would give to prevent those kinds

00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:40.219
of injuries for adults who are getting into these

00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:43.500
comp injuries? Yeah, and if you wanted to, a

00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:45.320
lot of the time with this kind of thing, the

00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:49.110
nice... part about the advice is that it matches

00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:51.630
also with what they want to do, if that makes

00:54:51.630 --> 00:54:55.050
sense. So to be a decent comp climber, you have

00:54:55.050 --> 00:54:58.449
to be good at the different types of climb that

00:54:58.449 --> 00:55:00.949
you're going to be faced with. So you need to

00:55:00.949 --> 00:55:04.670
train with variety. You need to train technique.

00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:08.269
You don't just train physical all the time. You

00:55:08.269 --> 00:55:10.809
need to do some technique drills and that kind

00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:14.050
of thing and learn some new movements. break

00:55:14.050 --> 00:55:16.530
things down you know if you can't jump from volume

00:55:16.530 --> 00:55:19.409
to volume you need to make your own up at a level

00:55:19.409 --> 00:55:21.989
where you can start to to grapple with that so

00:55:21.989 --> 00:55:24.750
within either a climbing session or a climb week

00:55:24.750 --> 00:55:28.630
or you know some kind of a training um block

00:55:28.630 --> 00:55:33.170
you need some easy work yeah and and some medium

00:55:33.170 --> 00:55:36.329
skills consolidation type work and then some

00:55:36.329 --> 00:55:40.349
hard work as well and then behind that some um

00:55:40.349 --> 00:55:44.590
general strength training basically to you know

00:55:44.590 --> 00:55:47.630
to be robust enough to be dealing with this and

00:55:47.630 --> 00:55:50.829
to then realize that's going to take time yeah

00:55:50.829 --> 00:55:53.489
and don't sort of run before you can walk kind

00:55:53.489 --> 00:55:57.070
of thing and just build that up gradually um

00:55:57.070 --> 00:56:00.329
but one of the things that really helps prevent

00:56:00.329 --> 00:56:04.150
injury is variety you know talking about load

00:56:04.150 --> 00:56:06.630
management again if you just climb on the board

00:56:06.630 --> 00:56:10.340
all the time you're more likely to get injuries

00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:12.699
that I'd see obviously commonly associated with

00:56:12.699 --> 00:56:16.000
board climbing. But if somebody sport climbs

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.719
once a week, boulders once a week, board climbs

00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:21.460
once a week, goes to the gym once or twice a

00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:24.820
week, they're less likely to get injured. It's

00:56:24.820 --> 00:56:26.960
actually interesting that you mentioned elbows

00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:29.659
being the main thing. I also kind of thought

00:56:29.659 --> 00:56:31.539
shoulders would be a main thing as well. But

00:56:31.539 --> 00:56:35.219
just recently for me personally, I am working

00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:38.349
through elbow injuries. So I was like, oh. I

00:56:38.349 --> 00:56:39.889
guess you were right on the nose with that one.

00:56:40.690 --> 00:56:44.429
The elbow is the middle management of the arm.

00:56:44.869 --> 00:56:47.769
If we've got a wrist or a hand, a problem that's

00:56:47.769 --> 00:56:52.809
engaging with the hold and the wall, it's the

00:56:52.809 --> 00:56:56.750
elbow that has to compensate. For example, if

00:56:56.750 --> 00:56:59.050
you've lost some range in your wrist through

00:56:59.050 --> 00:57:01.969
a TFCC issue or something like that, I'm exaggerating

00:57:01.969 --> 00:57:04.030
with the hand angle here, but you can only get

00:57:04.030 --> 00:57:07.070
your hand that far over and it wants to be here.

00:57:07.630 --> 00:57:11.789
what what's compensating for that is is the elbow

00:57:11.789 --> 00:57:14.670
yeah as we have to lift that up now obviously

00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:16.289
there's something that happens at the shoulder

00:57:16.289 --> 00:57:19.730
as well but this is much happier down here that's

00:57:19.730 --> 00:57:23.269
a long story short yeah it is out there and then

00:57:23.269 --> 00:57:26.190
there's the yeah the you know the change in in

00:57:26.190 --> 00:57:28.889
setting now yes we are seeing more shoulder problems

00:57:28.889 --> 00:57:34.789
but often it will show itself in the elbow first

00:57:36.130 --> 00:57:39.469
from my kind of there's a bit of research behind

00:57:39.469 --> 00:57:43.829
that but yeah anecdotally I will pretty much

00:57:43.829 --> 00:57:46.449
always if somebody comes with an elbow problem

00:57:46.449 --> 00:57:51.230
like a tendinopathy type thing I will pretty

00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:54.230
much always test the shoulder and have a look

00:57:54.230 --> 00:57:57.090
and often they'll be like no my shoulders are

00:57:57.090 --> 00:57:59.329
fine they're okay no problems with the shoulders

00:57:59.329 --> 00:58:01.389
it's like well it only takes five minutes let's

00:58:01.389 --> 00:58:03.719
just let's just do the test and then you're Find

00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.119
something that's significant enough to make you

00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:09.199
think, hmm, yeah, maybe something's going on

00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.119
there and we need to address that as well. So

00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.360
that can be kind of like the root cause and the

00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:16.900
elbow is what shows. And so you also mentioned

00:58:16.900 --> 00:58:20.199
that the elbow can come from the big slappy problems

00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:27.579
too. Yeah, and compression. So what terms are

00:58:27.579 --> 00:58:32.019
a bit interchangeable, I mean, what I call climber's

00:58:32.019 --> 00:58:36.570
elbow. um he's not golfers or tennis it's not

00:58:36.570 --> 00:58:39.949
a bicep tendinopathy it tends to be brachialis

00:58:39.949 --> 00:58:42.150
which is a muscle that sits under the biceps

00:58:42.150 --> 00:58:46.809
and is very active in that kind of range yeah

00:58:46.809 --> 00:58:50.530
really controlling the elbow so get it sometimes

00:58:50.530 --> 00:58:52.929
with people who have been max hanging weighted

00:58:52.929 --> 00:58:56.130
max hangs and we've got this kind of this angle

00:58:56.130 --> 00:59:00.670
at the elbow but also when we're slappy wide

00:59:00.670 --> 00:59:05.980
yeah big sloper bang on to them yeah it's it's

00:59:05.980 --> 00:59:09.219
that and i'd also sort of like sometimes call

00:59:09.219 --> 00:59:12.340
it font elbow which i'm sure a lot of people

00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:15.280
will know font but it's it's often a powerful

00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:18.860
compressive slopey style of climbing and people

00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:21.860
will often come back from font kind of like this

00:59:21.860 --> 00:59:27.219
and say can you help me yeah yeah so the tendons

00:59:27.219 --> 00:59:30.980
are sensitive to velocity basically so you know

00:59:30.980 --> 00:59:33.400
if you load something really fast even coming

00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:37.579
off is is a change in in the load that the strain

00:59:37.579 --> 00:59:39.739
that's being put through the tendon so if you're

00:59:39.739 --> 00:59:42.099
squeezing as hard as you can and then suddenly

00:59:42.099 --> 00:59:46.139
let go that that tendon yeah and it so it works

00:59:46.139 --> 00:59:48.159
both ways and then you know a fraction of a second

00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:51.110
later you're slapping again as you're uh as you're

00:59:51.110 --> 00:59:53.630
making your way up okay and then um the other

00:59:53.630 --> 00:59:56.070
audience question you mentioned hyper mobility

00:59:56.070 --> 00:59:59.050
a little bit earlier um but yeah this one was

00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:03.369
uh from ariana do on instagram um should folks

01:00:03.369 --> 01:00:06.969
with hyper mobility even climb as i touched on

01:00:06.969 --> 01:00:10.349
earlier um most things i say come with some kind

01:00:10.349 --> 01:00:14.489
of a context gray area type thing uh my general

01:00:14.489 --> 01:00:19.929
rule is yes um but you know you would need to

01:00:19.929 --> 01:00:24.849
be both assessed by somebody on the medical side

01:00:24.849 --> 01:00:27.789
of things and then somebody who also understands

01:00:27.789 --> 01:00:30.929
and knows climbing and physicality and the body

01:00:30.929 --> 01:00:33.030
and that kind of thing and just make sure you're

01:00:33.030 --> 01:00:35.769
doing the right thing for you really as far as

01:00:35.769 --> 01:00:39.590
that goes there's a bit like with arthritis that

01:00:39.590 --> 01:00:42.170
we touched on before there's this hyper mobility

01:00:42.170 --> 01:00:47.409
thing you know and what is it um So there's the

01:00:47.409 --> 01:00:50.750
standardized sort of what's known as a bedside

01:00:50.750 --> 01:00:55.110
test. And by that, it means that doctors are

01:00:55.110 --> 01:00:58.230
able to administer it very quickly. And it gives

01:00:58.230 --> 01:01:01.489
us a rough idea that they can just do in a few

01:01:01.489 --> 01:01:02.829
minutes. And that's these things like, you know,

01:01:02.849 --> 01:01:05.949
can you bend your thumb down to me? You know,

01:01:05.949 --> 01:01:08.650
do your elbows bend a bit backwards? That kind

01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:10.690
of thing. Do your knees bend backwards? Can you

01:01:10.690 --> 01:01:12.989
touch your hands down to the floor? And it's

01:01:12.989 --> 01:01:17.280
called the Baten scale. Really, when we look

01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:20.800
at where we got what is a standard range in a

01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.900
joint from, the data itself is a bit flawed.

01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:26.079
I won't bore you with it all. But back in the

01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.059
day, we weren't considering Asian populations.

01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.380
We weren't considering African populations. We

01:01:32.380 --> 01:01:38.019
now have, in general, different ranges of mobility.

01:01:38.300 --> 01:01:41.199
So somebody might be entirely normal for their

01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:44.179
population, but gets told, oh, you're hypermobile.

01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:47.639
And that brings with it a vulnerability that's

01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:50.320
not necessarily required that they think, oh,

01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.219
well, maybe I better stop doing activity than

01:01:53.219 --> 01:01:56.199
that. This person's guessing here, but maybe

01:01:56.199 --> 01:01:58.019
thinking, well, perhaps I should stop climbing.

01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:02.900
Maybe it's not the thing for me. So, yeah, hypermobility

01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:07.880
now is really looked at as a medical diagnosis.

01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:14.719
It's a disorder of the collagen. within the body.

01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:17.500
That's the connective tissue. Pretty much all

01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:19.940
of our connective tissue is collagen. So that's

01:02:19.940 --> 01:02:22.440
why it shows as joints that have more range,

01:02:22.659 --> 01:02:27.440
because the ligaments are maybe a bit more lax.

01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:29.840
Yeah, they're a bit more elastic because the

01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:32.639
collagen within them isn't that fantastic. But

01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:35.519
it also, if you've got a true hypermobility disorder,

01:02:35.739 --> 01:02:37.920
and the most commonly known one is one called

01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:41.440
Ehlers -Danlos syndrome, that in itself, I think

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.809
now we're up to... 18 derivatives of it you know

01:02:44.809 --> 01:02:47.329
and it's only found through genetic testing so

01:02:47.329 --> 01:02:51.429
you know somebody can't do this and can you bend

01:02:51.429 --> 01:02:53.309
your finger back and can you do all right you're

01:02:53.309 --> 01:02:56.809
hyper mobile that could be enough to think maybe

01:02:56.809 --> 01:03:00.329
this person needs further investigation yeah

01:03:00.329 --> 01:03:03.809
but you shouldn't label somebody from that um

01:03:03.809 --> 01:03:07.210
yeah it so the connective tissue throughout the

01:03:07.210 --> 01:03:10.349
entire body is affected so often people will

01:03:10.349 --> 01:03:12.989
have things like irritable bowel type symptoms

01:03:12.989 --> 01:03:16.409
because that's all made out of collagen they

01:03:16.409 --> 01:03:20.630
can have you know serious health issues within

01:03:20.630 --> 01:03:24.050
the the supportive structure that holds the aorta

01:03:24.050 --> 01:03:28.210
in place uh is connective tissue they can get

01:03:28.210 --> 01:03:31.369
uh lots of eye you know membrane type issues

01:03:31.369 --> 01:03:35.469
and that kind of thing so now it it's like that's

01:03:35.469 --> 01:03:39.090
hypermobility if somebody's just a bit rangy

01:03:39.090 --> 01:03:43.949
and and it is quite bendy but isn't presenting

01:03:43.949 --> 01:03:47.309
with a history of subluxations, you know, where

01:03:47.309 --> 01:03:51.230
a joint might pop out and go back in. And they

01:03:51.230 --> 01:03:53.349
do mad party tricks, you know, where they fold

01:03:53.349 --> 01:03:55.289
their arm around their back and then step through

01:03:55.289 --> 01:03:57.190
inside their own leg and put the leg around the

01:03:57.190 --> 01:03:59.170
back. You know, that's the kind of thing that's

01:03:59.170 --> 01:04:01.250
making you think like, ooh, potentially somebody

01:04:01.250 --> 01:04:03.369
might be a bit hypermobile and that might need

01:04:03.369 --> 01:04:06.510
looking at. Yeah, rather than just somebody that

01:04:06.510 --> 01:04:11.110
can touch the toes really well. So there is definitely,

01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:15.900
an increased risk if somebody does have hypermobility,

01:04:16.099 --> 01:04:20.119
but it can be really well managed. Strengthening

01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:23.099
through range with a well -planned program is

01:04:23.099 --> 01:04:25.960
fantastic. You can take things out of it by,

01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:29.000
you know, if maybe that person, it wouldn't be

01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:32.739
great for them to boulder. And this is just as

01:04:32.739 --> 01:04:35.760
an example, you know, they may want to top rope

01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:39.159
or auto belay or lead climb on steep stuff where

01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:40.780
they're not going to make an impact into the

01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:43.269
wall. You know, that kind of thing. So it could

01:04:43.269 --> 01:04:45.929
be the dropping off and falling could be the

01:04:45.929 --> 01:04:48.610
problem that you could manage while they were

01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:50.750
building some strength and that kind of thing.

01:04:50.809 --> 01:04:53.389
So even if somebody is, definitely wouldn't just

01:04:53.389 --> 01:04:58.210
say no. Have you seen any like hypermobile climbers

01:04:58.210 --> 01:05:01.369
on the comp circuit? Well, it's going to draw

01:05:01.369 --> 01:05:05.869
people who are naturally have greater range are

01:05:05.869 --> 01:05:08.190
going to be drawn to what, you know, that why

01:05:08.190 --> 01:05:10.980
didn't I play basketball at school? i'm five

01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:13.780
foot eight on a good day yeah um you know the

01:05:13.780 --> 01:05:16.659
people who played basketball were were over six

01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:18.579
foot tall it doesn't matter how good you are

01:05:18.579 --> 01:05:20.320
you know you're never going to make it to the

01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:24.400
uh the nba unless you you know six foot six and

01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:29.679
a half foot plus um and so in a sport that requires

01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:33.099
some crazy positions doesn't it nowadays you

01:05:33.099 --> 01:05:35.980
know and range so you know do we get people in

01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:39.980
gymnastics who are hyper mobile yes because they

01:05:39.980 --> 01:05:42.500
could probably do the splits on day one when

01:05:42.500 --> 01:05:44.559
they went for their first ever gymnastics lesson

01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:48.199
and got told like oh you're good at this and

01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:52.139
so we go to the things that we're good at don't

01:05:52.139 --> 01:05:55.820
we um so yeah absolutely i see both people who

01:05:55.820 --> 01:06:01.199
are who have naturally a high range of motion

01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:05.500
within certain joints most often the hips that's

01:06:05.500 --> 01:06:07.500
appropriate and gives them a bit of an advantage

01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:10.360
if you look at it from that way and i also i

01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:13.960
definitely have treated and know people um yeah

01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:17.559
who have hyper mobility and so in a way it could

01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:21.219
be better to be hyper mobile yeah yeah basically

01:06:21.219 --> 01:06:23.739
it's about have we got control in those ranges

01:06:23.739 --> 01:06:26.139
if you haven't got the ability to control that

01:06:26.139 --> 01:06:29.659
joint in that range then that's potentially not

01:06:29.659 --> 01:06:32.340
good news um but you could but that can be worked

01:06:32.340 --> 01:06:35.840
on yeah yeah yeah for most people yeah yeah and

01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.260
in most circumstances we can if nothing else

01:06:38.260 --> 01:06:42.219
improve things um but yeah is it an advantage

01:06:42.219 --> 01:06:44.579
you know i'm sure we've all seen the the beta

01:06:44.579 --> 01:06:46.760
breaks in comps haven't we where somebody's done

01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:49.440
the splits or whatever you know and that kind

01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:51.659
of thing well i wouldn't be able to do that beta

01:06:51.659 --> 01:06:54.300
break not that i'd be in that comp anyway but

01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:56.300
you know that's just that's just not even on

01:06:56.300 --> 01:06:58.800
the cards for me because it wouldn't happen okay

01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.079
gotcha Okay, cool. Well, I think that's all the

01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:04.420
questions I had. Thanks for joining me again

01:07:04.420 --> 01:07:08.480
today. Any like last minute words of wisdom you

01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:10.539
want to get out there or anything else that we

01:07:10.539 --> 01:07:13.940
didn't cover? I suppose it's what I've touched

01:07:13.940 --> 01:07:16.480
on really that I'm all about, whether it be youth

01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:20.019
or adults. It's if you're changing something,

01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:23.059
whether that's going from indoor climbing to

01:07:23.059 --> 01:07:25.840
outdoor climbing, take your time with it. If

01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:28.519
you're changing a new training thing, take your

01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.969
time with it. yeah that's load management yeah

01:07:31.969 --> 01:07:34.550
and management of risk and then you don't have

01:07:34.550 --> 01:07:37.730
to come and see me is what it's all about and

01:07:37.730 --> 01:07:39.949
I've forgotten to say all the way through this

01:07:39.949 --> 01:07:43.769
I've kept thinking I've got your hoodie on oh

01:07:43.769 --> 01:07:46.590
yeah yeah I was like yeah I noticed that halfway

01:07:46.590 --> 01:07:49.110
through maybe if you had like lowered your camera

01:07:49.110 --> 01:07:51.710
a little bit yeah I wanted to let oh yeah yeah

01:07:51.710 --> 01:07:54.550
yeah I should have done ah I should have done

01:07:54.550 --> 01:07:56.030
that shouldn't I sorry but it was just showing

01:07:56.030 --> 01:08:00.000
that awful no no it's all good It's cool. It's

01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:02.619
come to Spain with me. Yeah. It's, it's really

01:08:02.619 --> 01:08:06.019
warm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's my, um, yeah, it's

01:08:06.019 --> 01:08:09.019
my cozy hoodie. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's

01:08:09.019 --> 01:08:11.099
like a lot warmer than I thought, which is nice.

01:08:11.260 --> 01:08:14.559
It's perfect. Cool. Thank you very much. Yeah.

01:08:14.699 --> 01:08:16.359
And do you want to let people know where they

01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:19.680
can find you? Yeah. So I'm yeah. Process .physio

01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:24.600
on Instagram, uh, where I try to put my. thoughts

01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:26.720
mainly around things that hopefully can help

01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:30.239
people on there um and my sort of website for

01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:33.159
my professional side of things is processphysiotherapy

01:08:33.159 --> 01:08:37.659
.co .uk i do do remote i work with patients around

01:08:37.659 --> 01:08:40.640
the world but often also just as you may have

01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:42.800
noticed from this i'm happy to chat about stuff

01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:45.779
so you know if people have got any kind of questions

01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:47.560
you don't need to engage with me on a professional

01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:49.760
level you can just yeah power it over and if

01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:52.340
i've got time i'll answer Awesome. Okay. Well,

01:08:52.399 --> 01:08:54.340
thank you again. It's amazing to talk to you.

01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:57.220
Cheers, Ginny. Thank you. Thank you so much for

01:08:57.220 --> 01:08:59.579
making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget

01:08:59.579 --> 01:09:02.060
to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise,

01:09:02.220 --> 01:09:05.520
you are a super fake climber. If you're listening

01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:08.079
on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you

01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.039
rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion

01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:14.199
on the free competition climbing discord linked

01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:16.640
in the description. Thanks again for listening.